Melioria Salon - "Military Aspects of the Rebellion in Britain's American Colonies"

13 August 2011

Attending: Sere Timeless, Aldo Stern, Fiorino Pera, Diogeneia von Khr, Prospero Pastorelli, Aria Vyper, Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny, Oona Riaxik , Rico Millefiori, Vicomte de Chiverny Jean Andr d'Ambleville, Ernst Osterham

Photos: https://picasaweb.google.com/109722012977197738104/Melioria

[10:03] Aldo Stern: Think of this like the coffee houses of London and Vienna and Venizia where the discussion is open to all thoughtful people, and the only rule is civility and courtesy

[10:04] Aldo Stern: Thank you for joining us, everyone

[10:05] Aldo Stern: I am turning leadership of this discussion over to the Baronessa as she has perhaps the most familiarity with this subject

[10:06] Diogeneia von Khr: Danke, Herr Professor

[10:06] Diogeneia von Khr: may I ask, have you all received the readings and notes I prepared in advance?

[10:07] Fiorino Pera: Signora, s.

[10:07] Prospero Pastorelli: Yes, I have read them.

[10:07] Sere Timeless: Receive yes -- fully read and digest, no.

[10:07] Diogeneia von Khr: hah, that is quite all right Fraulein...you will do fine I am sure

[10:07] Oona Riaxik: yes

[10:08] Oona Riaxik: thank you

[10:08] Diogeneia von Khr: Remember this not like one of the Professor's lectures at the university in Torino. I will not quizzing you at the end.

[10:08] Diogeneia von Khr: There is no right or wrong...but questions that are merely food for thought

[10:10] Diogeneia von Khr: ((also please remember we are in the year 1780 so the rebellion is still underway, and will not end for another three years))

[10:11] Diogeneia von Khr: Today, the Professor has asked me to lead a discussion of purely military questions arising from the Rebellion in the British colonies of North America...

[10:12] Diogeneia von Khr: This is not about the philosophical foundations of that conflict, nor the economic and political issues. Perhaps we will discuss that another day.

[10:12] Diogeneia von Khr: *smiles*

[10:12] Diogeneia von Khr: Today, it is merely questions about the military aspects of the conflict.

[10:12] Diogeneia von Khr: And may I suggest to start... how is possible do you think that the rebellious colonists are still competing militarily with one of the best armies in the world? and one that is certainly supported by what is undoubtedly the best navy.

[10:14] Diogeneia von Khr: It seems very unlikely that they would have lasted this long.

[10:14] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: I suppose I can provide the French perspective.

[10:14] Diogeneia von Khr: Very well, Herr Vicomte, please proceed

[10:15] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: I do not think the colonists stand a chance without the intervention of the French fleet.

[10:16] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: With His Majesty's fleet, there is a real threat posed as a counterweight to British naval dominance.

[10:17] Sere Timeless: The French have also sent soldiers, have they not?

[10:18] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: My friend the Marquis de Lafayette has been assisting General Washington on the ground

[10:18] Aldo Stern: Yes, and also weapons and other equipment for the Americans to use on land.

[10:18] Oona Riaxik: Perhaps the French have found other ways to show their support without risking war with Britain

[10:18] Aldo Stern: Well Fraulein Oona, they are already well into the war now, and in fact as the Vicomte points out they can relieve pressure on the colonists in certain ways.

[10:19] Oona Riaxik: ah oui 1780, pardon

[10:19] Aldo Stern: Their fleet so far has not done too well in fighting off the New England coast, but they have drawn away British squadrons to fight in other places such as the West Indies

[10:19] Aldo Stern: the British must defend their holdings there and that spreads their resources thinner

[10:20] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: With the French fleet the British can no longer plan a full invasion like they did a few summers ago

[10:23] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: I can only hope that we will regain our lost colonies from the British as well as our lost prestige.

[10:21] Diogeneia von Khr: Ja..this is all very important--the war obviously cannot end well for the colonists without allies

[10:22] Diogeneia von Khr: if they succeed ultimately it may be argued that the French will make the difference

[10:22] Oona Riaxik: But they come so far using partly for using new tactics some learned from the natives

[10:22] Diogeneia von Khr: But this has only been the case for the last few years...how have they managed to field an army and keep it intact up until that point when the French became their allies?

[10:23] Oona Riaxik: and some from the frontiersmen. These guerrilla skirmishes in the south have been very successful

[10:23] Diogeneia von Khr: ah, it is interesting you mention that fraulein Oona

[10:23] Oona Riaxik: the British cannot figure out where they are or when the next attacks will be as they cling to an older and proscribed method of battle

[10:23] Diogeneia von Khr: but to fight like the natives with hit and run, you may stretch out a war, but you cannot win

[10:24] Fiorino Pera: To me it seems there is one thing that the Americans have that the great powers do not have: the English fight for possessions, the French fight for prestige: the colonists fight for their lands and families and way of life.

[10:24] Diogeneia von Khr: and do not forget that the British also have their Indian allies in America

[10:24] Oona Riaxik: oui, the French will have to be the decisive blow

[10:24] Aldo Stern: oh an excellent point, Fiorino

[10:24] Fiorino Pera: Thank you, Professore.

[10:25] Aldo Stern: the asset that is intangible

[10:25] Oona Riaxik: this explains their persistence but not the success of an army that is not well supplied

[10:26] Diogeneia von Khr: ah very good point Fraulein Oona

[10:26] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Let us also not forget the intervention of Spain

[10:26] Oona Riaxik: Bonjour Signor Osterham

[10:26] Diogeneia von Khr: guten tag Herr Osterham, please join us

[10:26] Ernst Osterham nods politely and sets his hat on the table

[10:27] Fiorino bows his head to the newcomer

[10:27] Diogeneia von Khr: yes..the Spanish. and who knows the Dutch may join in as well before long

[10:27] Diogeneia von Khr: but again...

[10:27] Diogeneia von Khr: the British have their own allies

[10:27] Prospero Pastorelli: So this is just another European war?

[10:27] Oona Riaxik: the British have to have everything shipped in while the colonists can provide for themselves, however meagerly

[10:27] Oona Riaxik: by destroying supply lines and ammunition ambushes, the colonists

[10:28] Oona Riaxik: have been able to survive thus far

[10:28] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: The Bourbons have shown themselves more dedicated to liberty than any other monarchy

[10:28] Diogeneia von Khr: the German principalities which have sent troops...including one of my brothers who is an officer of Jaegers from Ansbach Bayreuth

[10:28] Diogeneia von Khr: and again, the natives

[10:28] Diogeneia von Khr: who are very formidable allies

[10:29] Oona Riaxik: the Baron deKalb has almost singlehandedly saved the colonist army form caving in on itself

[10:29] Aldo Stern: ah Prospero's question

[10:29] Aldo Stern: no not just another european war...it is becoming a war across the world

[10:29] Ernst Osterham: Ah, but that has happened before, has it not?

[10:30] Aldo Stern: a world war you mean?

[10:30] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Just as the last war, the Seven years war was a world conflict

[10:30] Ernst Osterham: Nay, but when Britain and France fight, they fight wherever they find each other

[10:30] Ernst Osterham nods

[10:30] Oona Riaxik: oui

[10:30] Ernst Osterham: Yes

[10:30] Diogeneia von Khr: ahaha, good point Herr Osterham

[10:30] Oona Riaxik: the consequences form this war in the colonies will shake the foundations of Europe

[10:30] Prospero Pastorelli: World conflict? Or a war where the Europeans go and fight on other people's land?

[10:31] Ernst Osterham: The latter

[10:31] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: The days of European wars are over, each war started in Europe will be fought far from home as well as close

[10:31] Prospero Pastorelli: Baronessa, I have a question about the Germans.

[10:32] Prospero Pastorelli: Are the Germans really fighting at a people allied with another? or are these mercenary armies hired to fight?

[10:32] Diogeneia von Khr: but to Prospero's question--I think it is not just that Europeans are fighting their wars on other people's lands..those people are involved as well...each for their own interests

[10:32] Diogeneia von Khr: the colonists, the red indians of North America...

[10:32] Diogeneia von Khr: the native people in India

[10:33] Diogeneia von Khr: they all have their own interests to seek to advance

[10:33] Diogeneia von Khr: and as for the Germans

[10:33] Diogeneia von Khr: they are professionals...but it is not so simple a thing as just they were contracted...

[10:34] Diogeneia von Khr: there are matters of allegiance

[10:34] Diogeneia von Khr: remember the rulers of Brittan are Germans

[10:34] Prospero Pastorelli: Yes

[10:34] Diogeneia von Khr: but if I may

[10:35] Diogeneia von Khr: let us go back to the army of the colonists

[10:35] Oona Riaxik: and their future in America after the war where they will be free to own land, be unified, and be not beholden to a lord

[10:35] Diogeneia von Khr: it is not merely a rabble

[10:35] Diogeneia von Khr: a mob with muskets

[10:35] Diogeneia von Khr: that is why in the readings I included General Washington's general orders for just a few days right after he took command

[10:36] Diogeneia von Khr: you can see how we was imposing order and discipline

[10:36] Diogeneia von Khr: creating a real army

[10:36] Diogeneia von Khr: he was after all an officer of the English army in the 7 years war

[10:36] Oona Riaxik: and his hero, Vernon, one the greatest officers of the British army

[10:37] Ernst Osterham: Very true, though it is often seen as such by those who don't look as close as they should....to their downfall oftentimes

[10:37] Diogeneia von Khr: others of his officers they are self taught

[10:37] Fiorino Pera: Yes, I did read that. I was impressed by his sense of honor and discipline for his men.

[10:37] Diogeneia von Khr: like the General Greene

[10:37] Diogeneia von Khr: or General Arnold...I am not sure of him

[10:37] Diogeneia von Khr: was he self taught as well?

[10:37] Oona Riaxik: Greene is very underappreciated in his contributions to the war

[10:38] Oona Riaxik: General Arnold is not educated and is quixotic

[10:38] Diogeneia von Khr: ah but he is still one of their best commanders

[10:38] Oona Riaxik: this makes him a great leader under pressure but not stable

[10:39] Diogeneia von Khr: it was he who was actually responsible for the victory called Saratoga

[10:39] Oona Riaxik: his motivations are unclear and it is worrisome especially now he is married to a loyalist

[10:39] Diogeneia von Khr: which of course convinced the French that it would be worth while to join the Americans as allies

[10:39] Diogeneia von Khr: but then there are of course other resources they have drawn on

[10:39] Diogeneia von Khr: the foreign volunteers

[10:40] Diogeneia von Khr: such as the Vicente's friend Herr Lafayette

[10:40] Diogeneia von Khr: and the Prussian Feldwebel who has taught the Americans drill

[10:40] Oona Riaxik: Poor Lafayette! He is so eager! but so beloved by Washington that the General does not want him in any danger!

[10:42] Sere Timeless: What do we know of General Washington's strategy for driving the British army from North America?

[10:43] Diogeneia von Khr: at present it is unlikely they will be able to drive them out of New York

[10:43] Diogeneia von Khr: it is too well defended

[10:44] Oona Riaxik: he will have to focus in the southern arena

[10:44] Ernst Osterham: He is a man of long range plans and patience, however

[10:44] Diogeneia von Khr: but if they can isolate other British forces in the countryside and destroy them piecemeal

[10:44] Ernst Osterham: Too many times there have been close escapes for him

[10:45] Aldo Stern: to a great extent, the primary thing that the General Washington must do is to keep an army in the field...even if it is small at times...if he can keep the war going...the British people and parliament will tire of it, no?

[10:46] Sere Timeless: And it will be costly to the British to maintain an army so far away.

[10:46] Diogeneia von Khr: ja, and they have other colonies that are now threatened by the French...

[10:47] Diogeneia von Khr: but let us return to the issue of the native people in this war...

[10:47] Diogeneia von Khr: one of the reasons that the colonists decided to pursue independence, rather than a reconciliation with the homeland, was the use of native warriors as allies by the British in attempting to put down the rebellion

[10:49] Sere Timeless: It is interesting that the British are developing alliances with the natives. Slightly over a decade ago the British were fighting in North America against the French who were allied with the Indians.

[10:49] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: The British were allied with their own Indians at the time too

[10:49] Diogeneia von Khr: yes that is true

[10:50] Diogeneia von Khr: the natives have their own set of traditional conflicts and alliances...

[10:50] Diogeneia von Khr: one can argue that they use European colonial wars as an opportunity to go after their traditional native enemies

[10:50] Prospero Pastorelli: Do you think that the American colonials will have a backlash against the natives if the colonials win?

[10:51] Aldo Stern: ah Prospero, the Colonists will certainly wish to push the natives off their lands beyond the mountains in the Ohio country if they win

[10:51] Oona Riaxik: I would think that extreme although it is a major benefit for engaging in a war over many other issues - a very compelling additive

[10:52] Oona Riaxik: clearly the natives cannot be trusted, their motivation is totally unclear to the Europeans and they change sides

[10:52] Oona Riaxik: they will be too much of a threat to either party who wins

[10:52] Diogeneia von Khr: ja, Professor, that is why many of the colonists were angry with the British government was that it was trying to keep them out of the indian lands to the west

[10:53] Oona Riaxik: is that enough in its own right to rebel?

[10:53] Diogeneia von Khr: what of the ethics of using natives to raid settlements?

[10:53] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Unfortunately - the colonists and the British are not interested in working with the natives like France was. The British are rather keen on slaughtering them

[10:54] Fiorino Pera: I hear you, Viscomte. I have heard the same criticism.

[10:54] Diogeneia von Khr: I trust you noted that in the readings I supplied there was still a level of honor and civilized behavior displayed by the American and european combatants

[10:54] Diogeneia von Khr: as when Baroness Riedesel and her family were treated so kindly after Burgoyne's surrender

[10:55] Diogeneia von Khr: well..at least for officers..there is decent treatment...

[10:55] Diogeneia von Khr: but such is not so in native style warfare

[10:55] Aldo Stern: Baronessa, warfare by it's nature is uncivilized no matter how much we may like to pretend otherwise

[10:56] Aldo Stern: You may argue that a people will do what they must do to end a conflict as quickly as possible

[10:56] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: It is true that the natives often don't understand the meaning of surrender

[10:56] Jean Andr d'Ambleville giggles

[10:56] Fiorino Pera: Yes, we live in the Land of Westphalia. That should tell us something about incivility of war.

[10:56] Aldo Stern: and as for chivalry and decent treatment of prisoners...

[10:57] Aldo Stern: the officers and their wives may be get wine and smoked tongue

[10:57] Ernst Osterham: Yet notice the complaint of the British of the treatment of their officers

[10:57] Aldo Stern: but the enlisted soldiers and sailors are consigned to prison hulks

[10:57] Ernst Osterham: And the high casualties they take due to being specifically targeted

[10:58] Diogeneia von Khr: *sighs* both sides do that

[10:58] Diogeneia von Khr: the Americans have their riflemen

[10:59] Diogeneia von Khr: the British have the German jaegers with their rifles

[11:00] Diogeneia von Khr: you know...that is why we have the ensigns ...or faeneriche to carry the flags

[11:00] Diogeneia von Khr: they are the most visible target

[11:00] Diogeneia von Khr: so you give the flag to the youngest most expendable officers to carry

[11:01] Ernst Osterham: Perhaps some in the British army have an overdeveloped sense of fair play

[11:02] Oona Riaxik: How so?

[11:02] Aldo Stern: war is institutionalized brutality...it is best if we do not pretend it is anything else

[11:02] Ernst Osterham: One had written that he felt his officers were taking excessive fire relative to the men

[11:02] Prospero Pastorelli: Thank you for that, Professor

[11:02] Ernst Osterham: I believe it was a few years ago, in 75 or 76 perhaps?

[11:03] Oona Riaxik: naturally the way the British army is organized and so far from home, depleting the ranks will be the best advantage for the colonists

[11:03] Oona Riaxik: they were highly targeted!

[11:03] Oona Riaxik: and this helped the ragtag army stay in the war so long

[11:04] Oona Riaxik: the old european "civilized" warfare met its end in this new wilderness

[11:04] Diogeneia von Khr: *coughs* For some officers the best to way to win a battle is make sure the guy who is in charge stays in charge...

[11:05] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: There may be rules in war, and it may be a game to many gentlemen...but at the end of the day someone is getting their head blown off

[11:05] Diogeneia von Khr: if some yankee rifleman had shot Burgoyne he would have been doing the British a big favor

[11:05] Oona Riaxik: it is a good point

[11:05] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: War can be necessary at times, but it still is an ugly, ugly affair

[11:05] Oona Riaxik: know thy foe

[11:06] Diogeneia von Khr: so..what do you think the outcome will be?

[11:06] Oona Riaxik: if your adversary is an incompetent, let him hang himself

[11:06] Diogeneia von Khr: the British keep defeating the American army more often than they are beaten

[11:06] Diogeneia von Khr: but those "victories" are so often very costly

[11:06] Oona Riaxik: it is hard to say, but without control of the south, the colonists really wont stand a chance unless a French miracle happens

[11:06] Diogeneia von Khr: they lose more than the Americans do

[11:07] Diogeneia von Khr: the Americans 'rise again to fight again" as Herr Greene said

[11:07] Diogeneia von Khr: they lost a city for a while...

[11:07] Diogeneia von Khr: then they gain it back

[11:08] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Remember that Britain has a parliament, and that the Whigs do not support this war. It is only a matter of time until parliament cuts off the Kings purse. He cannot fight the colonists forever

[11:08] Diogeneia von Khr: the British cannot occupy everything in force, especially when they must send forces to fight the French in the West Indies and elsewhere...

[11:09] Ernst Osterham nods

[11:09] Diogeneia von Khr: yes, Herr Vicomte--that is exactly true

[11:09] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: The colonists just have to hold out long enough and then it is their victory

[11:09] Ernst Osterham: It is their war to lose

[11:10] Diogeneia von Khr: and the Americans, they may not have a great navy but they are very good at commerce raiding

[11:10] Diogeneia von Khr: the war will get expensive for the British businessman

[11:11] Aldo Stern: so Baronessa

[11:11] Aldo Stern: do you think your brother, the officer of jaegers, will be sent home soon?

[11:12] Diogeneia von Khr: *shrugs* actually last time he wrote to me, he said he was thinking of staying in America, regardless if the colonists win

[11:12] Diogeneia von Khr: you know I have another brother..the one who had been a jesuit

[11:12] Diogeneia von Khr: he is now a trader among the natives, and he likes it there very much

[11:13] Diogeneia von Khr: *laughs* maybe I should go there too!

[11:14] Aldo Stern: well ladies and gentlemen

[11:14] Oona Riaxik: Perhaps! I hear many of the women are fighters, too!

[11:14] Aldo Stern: first I would like to say that his past hour has flown by

[11:14] Aldo Stern: we are near the time we expect to finish

[11:14] Fiorino nods

[11:15] Aldo Stern: I would open up for additional comments or final questions?

[11:16] Oona Riaxik: perhaps we could consider what will happen in the event of a British victory

[11:16] Ernst Osterham: An interesting question

[11:16] Diogeneia von Khr: ja very interesting

[11:16] Oona Riaxik: what repercussions for the rebellious colonists?

[11:16] Oona Riaxik: and Europe

[11:17] Diogeneia von Khr: their leaders will no doubt have to flee

[11:17] Diogeneia von Khr: perhaps would they be welcomed in France, Herr Vicomte?

[11:17] Ernst Osterham: There will be reprisals, but I wonder how severe? I can't imagine the King or parliament would react like a rebellion of slaves

[11:17] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: I am sure, although France does not see defeat as an outcome at this time

[11:17] Oona Riaxik: or perhaps they will expand west.

[11:18] Oona Riaxik: with the colonists in control, the British could send their troops to the Indies, securing the west and

[11:18] Oona Riaxik: a monopoly in western trading

[11:18] Sere Timeless: There are French territories to the west of the Mississippi are there not?

[11:19] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Not anymore

[11:19] Oona Riaxik: while imposing heavy fines on colonist to repay the war

[11:19] Aldo Stern: the Americans? they could also go to the Spanish held lands beyond the great river

[11:19] Prospero Pastorelli: But are not the British growing in Asia? Will they not seek to expand there?

[11:20] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: France has already been largely defeated in India

[11:20] Diogeneia von Khr: hmmmm

[11:21] Diogeneia von Khr: perhaps one group that would benefit if the colonists are defeated

[11:21] Diogeneia von Khr: that would be the north American indians

[11:21] Oona Riaxik: perhaps, as long as they are willing to live beyond the lands Britain wants for itself

[11:22] Diogeneia von Khr: as the British would undoubtedly maintain the limits keeping settlers out of the Ohio country

[11:22] Oona Riaxik: the British have no respect for these like the French do

[11:22] Sere Timeless: You do not think that the British would be just as ruthless as the colonists in pushing the natives out of lands that held promise of generating wealth?

[11:22] Oona Riaxik: and would wish to remove them as future potential allies

[11:22] Diogeneia von Khr: that relationship changed after Pontiac's war

[11:22] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Without France or Spain, the indians are in a lose-lose situation

[11:23] Diogeneia von Khr: after the seven years war, the indians very nearly threw the British out of the western lands

[11:23] Fiorino Pera: Yes, I have heard this too.

[11:23] Oona Riaxik: I think the colonists, who are British subjects, will be just as bad as the British if they were - however, they have some alliances with the indians in this war that might be of benefit to the natives

[11:23] Diogeneia von Khr: it was a close enough thing that the British had agreed to the limits to settlement and were beginning to take on more of the role formerly played by the French

[11:23] Oona Riaxik: yes, t he natives do not look like they will survive either outcome well

[11:25] Diogeneia von Khr: I respectfully disagree Fraulein....

[11:25] Diogeneia von Khr: if the British win, their indian allies will be in a fairly powerful bargaining position

[11:25] Oona Riaxik: yes you mentioned you think the natives will fare well id a British victory is had..

[11:26] Diogeneia von Khr: warfare is their way of life...they will happily fight the British if they do not retain control of the interior lands

[11:26] Oona Riaxik: ah I don't believe the English feel much sense of duty to those alliances, which are still fewer and more tenuous than the colonists

[11:27] Prospero Pastorelli: Pity that we have not English here. It would be interesting to hear from them.

[11:27] Diogeneia von Khr: yes

[11:27] Diogeneia von Khr: yes it would

[11:28] Sere Timeless: I shall have to tell Sir Geoffrey that his presence was missed this morning.

[11:28] Diogeneia von Khr: his perspective would have been useful as an English banker

[11:29] Oona Riaxik: well we spoke more of strategy today perhaps another discussion on the economics of the situation would be interesting?

[11:29] Diogeneia von Khr: though for that matter, Miss Timeless...I know you have been away from England for some time...may I ask what is your perspective

[11:30] Sere Timeless: Well this whole American uprising has been a bloody nuisance.

[11:30] Sere Timeless: It has, as you mentioned earlier, disrupted a great deal of British trade which is the bread and butter of the banking business.

[11:31] Sere Timeless: Although we have found it profitable to make loans to the continental royalty from time to time.

[11:32] Diogeneia von Khr: always needing money they are, ja?

[11:32] Sere Timeless: They always have to find a way to pay their armies

[11:33] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: mon cousine!

[11:33] Oona Riaxik: bonjour aimee

[11:33] Diogeneia von Khr: that is after all one of the factors in the Margraf of Ansbach-Bayreuth regarding his relationship with the British monarchy...

[11:33] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny curtsies

[11:33] Sere Timeless looks around for another chair.

[11:33] Diogeneia von Khr: yes it is about honor and allegiance

[11:33] Diogeneia von Khr: but he is also getting paid by the British

[11:34] Diogeneia von Khr: it is reducing his debts substantially

[11:34] Diogeneia von Khr: ah guten tag Fraulein

[11:34] Sere Timeless: Please have a seat Signora

[11:34] Diogeneia von Khr: but may I ask Herr Vicomte, speaking of continental royalty and their expenditures...

[11:35] Diogeneia von Khr: is this war not using up a great deal of the French King's resources?

[11:35] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Every war does for each country. Both France and Britain have amassed a great deal of debt fighting this.

[11:36] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: The only problem is that the interest in France is much higher.

[11:36] Diogeneia von Khr: is the situation potentially ruinous for France?

[11:37] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: We have seen worse before. In the War of the Spanish Succession, gold furniture in Versailles had to be melted down in order to pay for debts.

[11:37] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: Ruinous was little, the complete French economy almost collapse

[11:38] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Us aristocrats have much personal wealth, but the treasury is broke and the economy is stagnant

[11:39] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: don't let the appearance fool you, my cousin, the nobles have to ask for credit with the bourgeoisies to be able to keep the luxury life style that Versailles demands

[11:39] Diogeneia von Khr: Himmel! Does this not greatly concern you?

[11:40] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: No, because after the war the situation can be solved with finance reform

[11:40] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Just like Cardinal Fleury solved the financial problems of Louis XV's early reign

[11:40] Aldo Stern: but what if the war drags on for a number of years more? might it be too late?

[11:41] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: besides, our people is on the streets making riots for a piece of bread

[11:41] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: By that time Britain would of pulled out because of the same financial problems

[11:41] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Their parliament is much more keen on controlling the crown's expenditures

[11:43] Diogeneia von Khr: *glances at the fraulein de Chiverny and notices what seems to be great concern on her face*

[11:43] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: I know that the debt will be a concern once the war is over. But this is unrelated to foreign policy, it has to do with our own internal problems

[11:43] Ernst Osterham follows her gaze

[11:44] Diogeneia von Khr: Fraulein de Chiverny, I observe by your expression that perhaps you do not share the Vicomte's confidence?

[11:45] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: I had to agree with you on that part, Baronessa von Kuhr

[11:45] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: Imagine this situation: we go on war, and the other country, the one we try to help, reach victory

[11:46] Diogeneia von Khr: *thinks that perhaps she needs to stop smoking as it apparently is making her voice seem too mannish*

[11:46] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: but what would be if the helper country is on economic crisis for that war?

[11:47] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Well a giant deficit followed by a giant debt

[11:47] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny looks at her mistake and blushes

[11:47] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: and what we can do to solve that debt?

[11:48] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Reform the tax system

[11:48] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: one of two scenarios are possible: an increase on taxes, or a decrease on public expenses

[11:48] Prospero Pastorelli: Is this not how the war in America started? Taxes?

[11:48] Diogeneia von Khr: do you think your king hopes also to get some new colonies from this war, perhaps?

[11:48] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Our system of revenue is outdated

[11:49] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Yes, the British had a huge debt and raised the taxes on the colonists. I suggest not raising the taxes on our peasants but on the clergy and aristocrats

[11:49] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: America is looking for freedom, on my journeys to New Spain I could see that the population starts to look for independence

[11:49] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: In France the 1st and 2nd estate pay no taxes

[11:50] Diogeneia von Khr: *removes her pipe, taps out the ashes and puts it away*

[11:50] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: and you do believed they would pay now? they wont let that happen, so, the taxes will be harder for the 3rd state

[11:50] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: If we do not reform the system the economy will collapse

[11:50] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: We have reformed it before

[11:50] Prospero Pastorelli: Good luck, Signor Viscomte.

[11:51] Ernst Osterham sets down his cup, stands and bows slowly with a smile, "If you will pardon me, I have a prior appointment"

[11:51] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Everyone has to compromise, and give up on some things and we will make it

[11:51] Prospero Pastorelli: Perhaps you as a nobleman can lead the way.

[11:51] Aldo Stern: of course sir, thank you for joining us

[11:51] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Au revoir, Monsieur

[11:51] Fiorino Pera: Good by, Signor Osterham

[11:51] Ernst Osterham: Most illuminating

[11:51] Diogeneia von Khr: Auf wiedersehen

[11:51] Sere Timeless: Thank you for joining the discussion signor

[11:52] Oona Riaxik: au revoir, Ernst

[11:52] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: I will support any reform proposed by His Majesty's finance minister but it is none of my business to lead the way

[11:52] Aldo Stern: but Signorina de Chiverny, you were saying that many of the noble class are deeply in debt already just to pay their expenses that go with the life of a courtier...

[11:53] Aldo Stern: can they afford new taxes any more than the working people?

[11:53] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: If they cut down on their court expenses they could pay

[11:53] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: It is a simple matter of responsibility

[11:54] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny thinks deeply for a couple of seconds "If I had to give you the reason, monsieur"

[11:54] Aldo Stern: do you think they will be willing to take the responsible course?

[11:54] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: It would be hard for them, but is certainly true that France needs resources

[11:55] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: I think so if faced with the possibility of economic collapse

[11:55] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: maybe a system of donations would work

[11:55] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: or one tribute, even if is really small, would be a great aid

[11:55] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: If the nobility and clergy reject reform they know what the consequences will be

[11:55] Diogeneia von Khr: and what is that?

[11:56] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: A financial depression I would think

[11:56] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Prices and interest would become extremely high

[11:57] Aria Vyper: excuse me everyone, but I must go - totally enjoyed the conversation - I have learned a lot

[11:57] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: And certainly the poor would starve

[11:57] Aria Vyper: good day all

[11:57] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: they are already high, one depression would lead to chaos

[11:57] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Bonsoir Madame

[11:57] Fiorino Pera: Good bye Principessa

[11:57] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: au revoir Madame

[11:57] Aria Vyper: smiles as I depart

[11:58] Aldo Stern: arrividerci Donna Ariella

[11:58] Oona Riaxik: Arriverdercia, siga Viper

[11:59] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: In the case of this lack of compromise and depression I can see no other alternative than leaving my post and attending to my personal inheritance and family

[11:59] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: But that would be a sad day for France

[11:59] Fiorino Pera: What is your post, Signor Visconte?

[11:59] Sere Timeless: It would be a sad day indeed, Vicomte.

[12:00] Diogeneia von Khr: it would yes,

[12:00] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: I attend to His Majesty at Versailles

[12:00] Fiorino Pera: Ah, I understand.

[12:00] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny looks amazed at her cousin

[12:01] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: As all courtiers do. But we would have to fend for ourselves if the economy collapsed

[12:01] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Maybe even flee the country

[12:01] Rico Millefiori: With your permission, signori, I must take my leave.

[12:01] Rico bow to the assembled nobles

[12:01] Jean Andr d'Ambleville nods

[12:02] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Bonsoir Monsieur

[12:02] Sere Timeless: We are pleased you were able to join us, Rico

[12:02] Diogeneia von Khr: thank you for coming

[12:02] Rico waves to his fellow apprentices

[12:02] Aldo Stern: Rico, I am pleased you came

[12:02] Rico Millefiori: It was a pleasure, Baronessa.

[12:02] Rico Millefiori: Good evening, Signor Professore

[12:02] Aldo Stern: I trust you will join us again in the future?

[12:02] Sere Timeless: Might it make sense to end the salon for today and take up our discussion another day?

[12:02] Rico Millefiori: I do hope so.

[12:02] Oona Riaxik: Goodbye Rico

[12:03] Fiorino Pera: ciao Rico bello mio

[12:03] Diogeneia von Khr: Fraulein Sere, I think we have already moved well beyond the original discussion

[12:04] Diogeneia von Khr: and which to thank all for attending and taking part

[12:04] Diogeneia von Khr: I myself will sit and be happy to talk with anyone who wished to continue conversation on any topic

[12:04] Oona Riaxik: thank you for hosting such an interesting and lively discussion

[12:04] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: Is a pleasure to attend this conversations

[12:04] Sere Timeless: If anyone has suggestions for future salon topics please forward them to Professor Stern or the Baronessa.

updated by @aldo-stern: 06 Oct 2016 06:08:20AM