[07:59] Aldo Stern: good day Signor Drinkwater
[08:00] Aria Vyper: good day
[08:01] Aldo Stern: ah good day, Donna Ariella
[08:01] Aldo Stern: may I introduce my good friend Signor Drinkwater
[08:01] Aria Vyper: well hello Signor Drinkwater
[08:01] JJ Drinkwater: The pleasure is entirely mine, Donna Ariella
[08:01] Aldo Stern: JJ, allow me to present la Dona Ariella, another member of our ruling council
[08:02] Nimue Brezoianu: Greetings Signori
[08:02] Aldo Stern: ah Contessa
[08:02] Aldo Stern: I am gratified you could attend
[08:02] Aria Vyper: good day Contessa
[08:02] Nimue Brezoianu: Hello Signor Stern
[08:02] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): guten tag
[08:02] Nimue Brezoianu: Buon Giorno Signira Vyper
[08:03] Nimue Brezoianu: Hello Baronessa
[08:03] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): Contessa, it is very good to see you
[08:03] Nimue Brezoianu: Greetings Monsieur
[08:03] Nimue Brezoianu: And its very nice to finally meet you Baronessa
[08:04] JJ Drinkwater: Good day, Freifrau von Kuhr
[08:04] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the pleasure is all mine, Contessa
[08:04] Aldo Stern: please , let's proceed into the coffee house
[08:05] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): sehr gut, I am needing the coffee very badly
[08:05] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): too early it is
[08:05] JJ Drinkwater bows the ladies in
[08:06] Aldo Stern: *signals for coffee to be brought*
[08:09] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): Bonjour tout
[08:10] JJ Drinkwater: Bonjour, Mamdame
[08:10] Aldo Stern: buongiorno, Signora
[08:10] Aldo Stern: welcome
[08:10] Aldo Stern: we have not commenced as yet
[08:10] Aldo Stern: we are very pleased to have you join us
[08:10] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): merci
[08:10] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): glad to be here
[08:10] Nimue Brezoianu: Buon Giorno Madame
[08:11] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare) smiles at Chere Contessa Foscari
[08:11] Aldo Stern: very well, let us begin...
[08:11] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): Bonjour Professor, lovely to see you again
[08:12] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare) smiles at others
[08:12] Aldo Stern: when we look back to the example of the classical world, and the writings of the ancient political philosophers of Greece and Rome
[08:12] Aldo Stern: we can see laid out for us, almost every form of government that can be applied to a people or a nation
[08:12] Aldo Stern: monarchy
[08:13] Aldo Stern: oligarchy and democracy
[08:13] Aldo Stern: tyranny
[08:13] Aldo Stern: and mixtures of all of those
[08:13] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Good evening
[08:13] Nimue Brezoianu: Good evening Luis
[08:14] Aldo Stern: Athens, for one, experienced them all at one time or another
[08:14] Nimue Brezoianu: How nice to see you again
[08:14] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): thanks
[08:14] Aldo Stern: but today..for us in the modern world of 1780...
[08:14] Aldo Stern: what do our modern philosophers and political thinkers say to us on the subject...and what is the best of these systems for us?
[08:15] Aldo Stern: buongirono signor,
[08:15] Aldo Stern: thank you for joining us
[08:15] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): buona sera.... Interesting topic
[08:15] JJ Drinkwater: Now, when we speak of democracy, we must say what a citizen is
[08:15] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): Bonjour Monsieur Bowenford
[08:15] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): *nods and smiles the gentleman who sits next to her*
[08:16] Aldo Stern: ah a good question Signor Drinkwater...do you have thoughts upon that?
[08:16] JJ Drinkwater: I have more questions than thoughts...
[08:16] Aria Vyper: welcome Vanessa
[08:17] Vanessa Montpenier: buongiorno
[08:17] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the thoughts start with the questions, ja?
[08:17] Vanessa Montpenier: Greetings
[08:17] Nimue Brezoianu: Greetings madame Montpenier
[08:17] Aldo Stern: buongiorno Donna Vanessa
[08:17] JJ Drinkwater: Is every resident of the state to be accorded rights of citizenship? Even those who know no better than to be guided by bare self-interest?
[08:17] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): I believe in Greek times, not all residents of the city-state were citizens
[08:18] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): citizens have duties
[08:18] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): and responsibilities
[08:18] JJ Drinkwater: And must, therefore, be fit for those duties and responsibilities
[08:18] Aldo Stern: do they also have to have judgement, and a certain level of learning perhaps in order to fulfill those duties ?
[08:19] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): judgment you can only hope, learning should be...in a modern democracy be provided by the state
[08:19] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): *modern
[08:19] Aldo Stern: *signals for a chair to to be moved in for Don Luis*
[08:19] JJ Drinkwater: Will the state then educate everyone?
[08:20] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): thank you
[08:20] Nimue Brezoianu: Maybe the state will educate everyone one day
[08:20] Aldo Stern: it seems that if one is to have democracy, then some form of improvement must be extended to all who will participate
[08:20] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): The state should provide free education
[08:21] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): for all....citizens
[08:21] JJ Drinkwater: But *can* every individual be educated to the duties of citizenship?
[08:21] Aldo Stern: otherwise they might be too easily misled and manipulated
[08:21] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): If the schooling is proper, I believe we could accomplish that
[08:22] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): or at least that is what we are trying back home
[08:22] Nimue Brezoianu: I greatly hope that one day it will be like this
[08:22] Nimue Brezoianu: meanwhile I will continue to sponsor the apprentices and a school for them
[08:22] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): Indeed Contessa school is the key
[08:22] JJ Drinkwater: The ancient world had, as il professore points out, also its demagogues...manipulators of the vote
[08:22] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but there are those who would argue that the common people are possessed of a common sense....
[08:22] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): they have to have that sense to live their lives, which are hard and challenging
[08:22] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): will they not see through the ones who would manipulate them?
[08:23] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): when people are educated they become "uncommon" no matter their birth
[08:24] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): I will go a step further...common people...need education the most, to change their agriculture life, to fit a new futuristic industrial one
[08:24] Nimue Brezoianu: Yes but if it were so for every soul in the community, it would quickly become "Common"
[08:24] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): we need to turn agriculturalists into employers for the most part of citizens
[08:24] Aldo Stern: ah but Signor Drinkwater has an excellent point ...we can see in history examples of demagogues who by their oratorical abilities, or cleverness
[08:24] Aldo Stern: or deceit
[08:24] Aldo Stern: ....made the citizens make choices that were not best for the state
[08:25] JJ Drinkwater bows to il professore in acknowledgement of his wisdom
[08:25] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): I am not so sure of the benefits of moving away from agriculture...
[08:25] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): for those who work on the land, there are certain sets of virtues and values that go with that...
[08:25] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): There are...but none in the factories
[08:25] Nimue Brezoianu: If the individual was taught as a youngster to think for himself, he would be less likely to be
[08:25] JJ Drinkwater: And are those rustic values the values of a citizen?
[08:25] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): moving people to cities and taking them into industry has great dangers...
[08:26] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the cities are dens of vice and degradation
[08:26] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): when country people move to industry, they are late to work, because in the field punctuality matters not
[08:26] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): in factories it matters most...education will show them to get to class in time
[08:26] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): they will learn, citezenship...and punctuality
[08:26] JJ Drinkwater: Surely the majority of labor in a state will always be agricultural....else how will the state be fed?
[08:26] Diogeneia (diogenes kuhr): it is in our nature to have a connection to the land
[08:27] Aldo Stern: I think the Baronessa, has a particular viewpoint on this, having managed a rural estate with her husband, the Freiherr von Khr
[08:27] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): It is indeed madame. but is also in man's nature to want to better themselves. Good or Bad, most see working in the city as a betterment
[08:27] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): being better citizens and good employees is paramount
[08:27] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): I have seen the country people and the city people both
[08:27] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): from my perhaps simple perspective, it seems that the country people make a better citizen
[08:28] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): they make better soldiers too
[08:28] Nimue Brezoianu: I also run an agricultural estate
[08:28] Nimue Brezoianu: so I do appreciate the need to keep some of the population working the land
[08:28] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): but how can you keep them there, if they see a better life.
[08:28] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): in the city[08:28] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Well, ladies are you familiar with the writings of a french author named Rousseau?
[08:29] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): he agrees with you about country folk being better, more....noble?
[08:29] JJ Drinkwater: but for those who work the land....have they the leisure to be educated?
[08:29] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ja
[08:29] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): "the good savage" I believe he called them
[08:29] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): he makes some sense in that I think
[08:29] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): Naturally Monsieur Rousseau is a great countryman
[08:28] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): in the city[08:29] Nimue Brezoianu: many go to the city, and then return preferring the rural life
[08:29] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): I honestly believe that there is good and bad in both
[08:30] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): There are lovely people in the city and horrible people in the country
[08:30] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): City life has more challenge, rural people learn deceit, learn to appear what they are not, therefore Rosseau said nobody can stay pure in any city[08:30] Aldo Stern: but then it seems we are saying....going back to our question...that you are arguing that a democracy would be an ideal form of government
[08:30] Aldo Stern: provided that the people who will be its citizens can be educated
[08:30] Aldo Stern: and formed into good citizens who will not be mislead and use good judgement?
[08:31] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Yes, democracy does seem the way to go
[08:31] JJ Drinkwater: But does not education of the mass of individuals pose great problems?
[08:31] Aldo Stern: it does indeed
[08:31] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): People should be planted where they will grow to use an agricultural metaphor
[08:31] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): many will do better in the cities
[08:31] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Then again, Plato did warn us that is only possible with a population under 10,000
[08:31] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): how are we going to make sure of that number?
[08:31] Aldo Stern: let us accept Don Luis' contention that democracy would be an ideal goal
[08:32] Aldo Stern: but must there be steps in between to get there?
[08:32] Nimue Brezoianu: make both choices equally attractive
[08:32] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): and many will be better in the country
[08:32] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): I believe choice is the key
[08:33] JJ Drinkwater: Indeed, how are we to undertake the education of those who now labor all their days to get bread?
[08:33] Aldo Stern: hmm a good question
[08:33] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): that is the question indeed
[08:33] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): and what of women?
[08:33] Nimue Brezoianu: Maybe we start with the children when they are very young
[08:33] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): maybe one child from a family is given an eduation
[08:33] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): my brothers were sent to a jesuit school
[08:34] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but what education I had was from them and the books they sent me
[08:34] Nimue Brezoianu: at least teach them the basic skills of reading and writing
[08:34] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): the one who shows the most promise
[08:34] Nimue Brezoianu: this could be done through the churches
[08:34] JJ Drinkwater: Then the son will be a citizen when the father is not? Will the people accept this?
[08:34] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): could be sent to the church
[08:34] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but then *smiles* no one expects the women to be citizens, eh?
[08:35] JJ Drinkwater: On the contrary, Frau Khr....are not women rational beings?
[08:35] Nimue Brezoianu: Well there many who would disagree with that view point
[08:35] Nimue Brezoianu smiles
[08:35] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): for now I believe women need to undertake the teaching of our daughters quietly
[08:35] JJ Drinkwater looks around the table
[08:35] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): grow their minds
[08:35] Nimue Brezoianu: I feel that both sexes should be taught the basics
[08:36] JJ Drinkwater: And what are the basics of education?
[08:36] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): make them strong and eventually they will be a force to be dealt with
[08:36] Nimue Brezoianu: I also feel that females can learn just as well as males
[08:36] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): Indeed Contessa
[08:36] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): you are a prime example of that
[08:37] Nimue Brezoianu: As are all the ladies here
[08:37] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): You run your family businesss most successfully
[08:37] Nimue Brezoianu grins[08:37] Aldo Stern: well..this brings up another question...related to who is a citizen...in addition to women, does a democracy function best when those who are making decisions are only those who own property?
[08:37] Aldo Stern: the argument may be made that good decisions in a democracy are based upon having a solid interest in what is good for the nation
[08:37] Aldo Stern: and that enlightened sense of interest is fostered by holding a stake in it--the property you hold
[08:37] Nimue Brezoianu: The question of Property will be an issue
[08:37] JJ Drinkwater: And can every common laborer think wisely about the good of the nation, or does that take a certain enlightened perspective?
[08:38] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): hmmmm
[08:38] Nimue Brezoianu: Realistically each individual will firstly think of what is good for himself and his family
[08:38] Nimue Brezoianu: but if that coincides with what is good for the state
[08:38] Nimue Brezoianu: the individual will support the state
[08:38] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): what if his interest is at odds with the common good?
[08:39] Nimue Brezoianu: Hmmmm
[08:39] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Will they?
[08:39] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): not sure
[08:39] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): what is the state for them?
[08:39] Nimue Brezoianu: There will always be the odd one out
[08:39] Aldo Stern: or the odd several
[08:39] Nimue Brezoianu giggles
[08:39] Nimue Brezoianu: yes
[08:40] Aldo Stern: that question may be one to discuss in further detail at some other point
[08:40] Nimue Brezoianu: But democracy allows for this
[08:40] JJ Drinkwater: Indeed, there will always be times when the individual will try to profit at the expense of the common good...what then?
[08:40] Nimue Brezoianu: Take countries like England that has a parliament
[08:40] Nimue Brezoianu: they have several parties that debate questions
[08:40] Nimue Brezoianu: so all points of view are given a chance to be heard...ideally, of course
[08:40] Aldo Stern: clearly there are issues to pursuing democracy
[08:40] Aldo Stern: which is an ideal
[08:40] Aldo Stern: but certainly can go very wrong
[08:40] Aldo Stern: and to get there, requires a process...and education for everyone, we seem to agree
[08:41] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): yes education must be a key point
[08:41] Aldo Stern: until as such time as a people are ready for democracy is there another system that might work best?
[08:41] Aldo Stern: have we any monarchists here?
[08:41] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): *coughs*
[08:41] Nimue Brezoianu: I am from a republic
[08:41] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): I happen to have some of the actual kings in esteem
[08:41] Nimue Brezoianu: be we do have a figurehead
[08:42] JJ Drinkwater: If a monarch seeks only the good of the state, is that not also a path to good government?
[08:42] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): *shrugs* perhaps I am closest to that viewpoint
[08:42] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): yes it is
[08:42] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): for even though I was not, strictly speaking a subject of the Prussian king
[08:42] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): we served him and followed him
[08:43] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): and respected him greatly as an autocrat, yes, but one who saw himself as a servant of the state...
[08:43] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the first citizen in effect
[08:43] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): with great duties and responsiblities
[08:43] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the state came first for him
[08:43] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): not his own desires and lusts and passions
[08:43] JJ Drinkwater: So perhaps we should look to the eduction of one, the monarch, before we look to the education of many
[08:44] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Well maybe the king and some others around him must have a specific education?
[08:44] Aldo Stern: ah well...good point Signor Drinkwater...there is a need to educate the rulers?
[08:44] Aldo Stern: the Baronessa's King Frederick is a man of the enlightenment....a friend of Voltaire ---very well educated
[08:44] JJ Drinkwater: All those who exert influence over the fate of the nation, then, should be taught how to pursue the common good
[08:45] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): yes, they need a more...private education
[08:46] Aldo Stern: but there is a risk in relying on a single man or a small group...
[08:46] JJ Drinkwater signals for more coffee
[08:46] Nimue Brezoianu: Yes I have heard that the King of prussia is very well educated
[08:47] Nimue Brezoianu: I have heard that Gustav of sweden is similar
[08:47] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Then perhaps as mister Locke said, the subjects should remind the rulers of their "social contract"?
[08:47] Nimue Brezoianu: Times are changing
[08:47] Aldo Stern: I shared with you all some readings..including one from Signor Hobbes
[08:47] Aldo Stern: in which he makes the point that a monarchy in its ideal form may be best form of government...
[08:48] Aldo Stern: but that it is incumbent upon the monarch to keep his own desires and feelings in check
[08:48] Aldo Stern: or it will go terribly wrong
[08:48] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): that sounds wise
[08:48] JJ Drinkwater: If the monarch is sufficiently enlightened, then?
[08:48] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): like in ancient Rome
[08:49] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): if Nero or Caligula could have kept their personal desires in check, they might even have been excellent rulers
[08:49] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Caligula was actually quite smart when not spending time in parties
[08:49] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): it is hard for a man who has too much power, to not be drawn into using that power for his own purposes, and not those of the collective good of his people and nation
[08:49] Nimue Brezoianu: It is also best if that monarch pays attention to what is happening
[08:49] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): it is Nim
[08:50] Nimue Brezoianu: I have spent time in Versailles and Louis XVI is a sweet and gentle man...
[08:50] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): he is
[08:50] Nimue Brezoianu: ...but he lives in a bubble with no idea of what is happening outside the walls of Versailles
[08:50] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): is the French king an educated man?
[08:51] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): He is
[08:51] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): believe me I can tell
[08:51] JJ Drinkwater: So, the monarch must be, not only enlightened, but well-informed...
[08:51] Nimue Brezoianu: He is a very educated man
[08:51] Nimue Brezoianu: but completely out of touch with his country
[08:51] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): enlightened, well informed and proactive
[08:52] JJ Drinkwater: ...and who is responsible for informing the monarch of the state of the nation?
[08:52] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): he needs to react to that information
[08:52] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): on behalf of his citizens
[08:52] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): well secretaries
[08:52] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): they report on a weekly basis
[08:52] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): so it is not just education...do you think he cares for his people?
[08:52] Nimue Brezoianu: I think somehow the Monarch must make his own efforts to inform himself
[08:53] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): I do believe he does.....yet he might not think of all residents as "HIS PEOPLE"
[08:53] Nimue Brezoianu: he also needs to be a good judge of character, to surround himself with the right advisors
[08:53] JJ Drinkwater: So, the ministers and secretaries must also have the proper education, and the interest of the nation at heart
[08:53] Nimue Brezoianu: Yes indeed
[08:53] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): yes, and the ministers should also be role models ...it gets ugly when they too have their desires unchecked
[08:53] Aldo Stern: a good point---so then do the assistants to the King, become a sort of oligarchy?
[08:54] Aldo Stern: a special group of well qualified people
[08:54] Aldo Stern: the best citizens
[08:54] Aldo Stern: to help the monarch in ruling?
[08:54] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): they become corrupt too
[08:54] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): when given to much power
[08:54] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): they can be corrupted, but good education, and a decent salary might prevent it
[08:55] Nimue Brezoianu: What you say is the sad case in Venice
[08:55] JJ Drinkwater: So how are the oligarchs to be chosen?
[08:55] JJ Drinkwater: By the monarch?
[08:55] Aldo Stern: well let us consider that Signor Drinkwater...
[08:55] Aldo Stern: for example, how are the councilors and the chancellors of the english king chosen?
[08:55] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): well if they get picked by the king, they might be chosen by friendship
[08:56] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): but imagine if they were picked by the people...then they would not feel obligated to the king
[08:55] Aldo Stern: arguably they have a successful mixture there--a monarch
[08:56] Aldo Stern: and an oligarchy in his advisors and the house of lords
[08:56] Aldo Stern: and then even a basic form of democracy in the house of commons
[08:56] JJ Drinkwater: But then might not they be demagogues?
[08:56] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): they usually turn so, I have heard
[08:57] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): and bring riots in the name of the people
[08:57] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): maybe that is what Voltaire was trying to address in his witticism about democracy
[08:58] JJ Drinkwater: The problem with both democracy and monarchy seems to be controlling human cupidity and self-interest
[08:58] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): cupidity?
[08:58] Aldo Stern: *nods* that is clearly what many of the political thinkers and philosophers have stated
[08:58] JJ Drinkwater: "Cupidity: Excessive desire, especially for wealth"
[08:59] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Thanks signor....I got lost in translation
[08:59] Aldo Stern: as Montesquieu said, virtue is necessary in a popular form of government and even more so in a monarchy
[09:00] JJ Drinkwater: So is the question then how we promote virtue?
[09:00] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): In short VIRTUE is a resource needed in both rulers and residents
[09:00] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): then perhaps we are saying that it is not one or other form of government that is best... but that any governments success is dependent on those who rule--whether it is monarch, the people or the oligarchs
[09:01] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): well, so far....religion has played a part in the creation of virtue, but not always successfully
[09:01] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): We may not know what is best, but there are some we can agree are intolerable
[09:01] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): whoever rules we need them to be reasonable, thoughtful and virtuous
[09:02] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): and I must add sensible
[09:02] Aldo Stern: and by virtue, I think we mean, civic virtue
[09:02] Aldo Stern: not unlike the virtues of the best of the ancient romans
[09:02] Aldo Stern: honor duty, self sacrifice
[09:02] Nimue Brezoianu: Maybe that is where basic education comes in
[09:02] JJ Drinkwater: Education can make us reasonable and thoughtful....but can it make the wicked virtuous?
[09:02] Nimue Brezoianu: No it probably can't
[09:02] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): No never!
[09:02] Nimue Brezoianu: and the trully wicked will use it for their own ends
[09:03] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): I have seen some reasonable and virtuous people that are unsensible in other matters of life
[09:03] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ja, sometimes the common sense is pretty uncommon
[09:03] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): we are speaking of two different things. character has nothing to do with education in my opinion
[09:03] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): You are born with character
[09:03] JJ Drinkwater: Then we must look to the formation of character and common sense, must we not?
[09:04] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): yes we do need that
[09:04] Nimue Brezoianu: I completely agree
[09:04] Aldo Stern: and where can that come from?
[09:04] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): I do believe character could be...modeled
[09:05] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): well Madame Bourbon is right we are born with a character
[09:05] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): but it changes with the life's experiences
[09:05] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): I agree it can change to a certain extent
[09:05] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): So we need to get the young ones to live certain experiences
[09:05] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): but say by about 15 you have your basic values
[09:05] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): maybe 21
[09:06] Nimue Brezoianu: so somehow children could be exposed to experiences that will chalenge them and make them more aware
[09:06] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): you know what you believe in your core
[09:06] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): you know right from wrong
[09:06] Nimue Brezoianu: Yes
[09:06] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): and whether you plan on following the "right" path
[09:06] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): be you a farmer or a Prince
[09:07] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Yes, but although you are sure of your character by 21... there will still be changes, life transforming changes until you reach old age
[09:07] JJ Drinkwater: So we must look to the upbringing of the young
[09:07] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): this is true
[09:07] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): but your basic character will dictate how you deal with the life issues
[09:08] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Then the state must have a role for that character, so that people feel useful in that role
[09:09] JJ Drinkwater: Or the state must be such that a citizen can promote its good by pursuing his private concerns
[09:09] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): you mean the state must admit....the pursuit of happiness?
[09:09] Nimue Brezoianu: That would be marvolous
[09:09] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): in Prussia everyone has a role...from king to peasant..and all is for the good of the state
[09:10] JJ Drinkwater: Tell us more, Frau Khr
[09:10] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): you have a duty, you know what it is...and you fulfill that role
[09:10] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): for example, the king works hard
[09:10] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): in the wars he was always with his soldiers
[09:11] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): when things got really bad, he went in front of them ..leading from the front
[09:11] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): he knew what his role was
[09:11] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the minor nobility like my husband...
[09:11] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): they are all farmers and officers
[09:11] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): farmers in peacetime...officers in war
[09:11] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): were they satisfied to be that?
[09:11] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): *shrugs* it is just what you do
[09:11] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the merchants in doing their work, they supply the state and the army
[09:12] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): they are necessary...they build the economy of the nation
[09:12] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): and the peasantry, they, like the nobility...in peace, they work the land...
[09:12] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): in war, the serve as the common soldiers
[09:12] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): each has his role and knows it
[09:13] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): is it enough to know what role the king has given you?
[09:13] JJ Drinkwater: So the state works because each member knows his place?
[09:14] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): it is not the king who gives the roles
[09:14] JJ Drinkwater bows to the ladies "Or her place"
[09:14] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): it is ...our society
[09:14] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Oh then who? themselves?
[09:14] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): I am sorry I must go
[09:14] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): so the farmer chooses to be a soldier?
[09:14] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Take care Madame Bourbon
[09:14] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): thank you for a stimulating conversaton
[09:14] Aldo Stern: some yes they do
[09:14] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): Au revoir tout
[09:15] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): interesting...
[09:15] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): it is not so much a nation with an army
[09:15] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): as it is an army with a nation
[09:15] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): and do all citizens accept these roles easily, no one disagrees with each others choice?
[09:16] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): as I said, it is simply what we do...that said *smiles* at this point in my life
[09:16] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): happier here I am, where my role is perhaps not so clear
[09:16] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): and may be more one of my own invention
[09:17] JJ Drinkwater: Indeed, must we not ask what happens in such a state when someone is discontented with his place?
[09:17] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): and yes, mein herr, there is coercion
[09:17] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): it is not always willingly
[09:17] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but it not always grudgingly either
[09:17] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): it helps when the King himself is seen to do his duty...
[09:18] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): to lead and play his part, when in his heart, he would rather be at San Souci playing his flute and talking to philosophers and poets
[09:18] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): *laughs* I think there is a reason he named his palace what he did
[09:18] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but we do not always get to do what we wish in life
[09:18] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): I am not familiar with his palace...What name is that?
[09:19] Aldo Stern: "without care"
[09:19] Aldo Stern: Sans Souci
[09:19] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): thanks for the translation
[09:19] JJ Drinkwater: [[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanssouci ]
[09:20] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but you all make a good point
[09:20] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): individuals do not always want to do what is good for the collective good\
[09:20] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): they do not always wish to fulfill their responsibilities
[09:21] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): maybe the education should focus at first on the several benefits of collective good
[09:21] Aldo Stern: and in a place like Prussia that might result in punishment
[09:21] JJ Drinkwater: And *does* the state impose penalties in that case?
[09:21] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ja
[09:21] JJ Drinkwater: On all equally?
[09:22] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): there is first the social pressure applied
[09:22] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): then there are different forms of punishment...but yes it is applied to all
[09:23] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but as I said...
[09:23] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): like my husband, like his dragoons...I did my duty...
[09:23] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): now I am happy to sit in the italian sunshine and drink very good coffee
[09:24] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): I drink to that
[09:24] Aldo Stern: and collect your pension from the Prussian government
[09:24] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): *laughs* ja, that is the other side of the equation
[09:24] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Well in that case, maybe all we need is to have a King Frederick in every nation
[09:24] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): we have a duty to the state
[09:24] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but the state in turn has a duty to us
[09:25] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Isn't it a shame good rulers are due to die some day
[09:25] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): and that almost as a rule...almost...after a good ruler comes a not so good one?
[09:25] Aldo Stern: actually that is a good point
[09:25] Aldo Stern: I do not think it necessarily a law of nature
[09:26] Aldo Stern: but it does seem to be a recurring theme in history
[09:26] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): it has happened more than once
[09:26] Aldo Stern: that after a Marcus Aurelius
[09:26] Aldo Stern: there comes a Commodus
[09:27] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): After Tiberius came Caligula, after Claudius, Nero
[09:27] Aldo Stern: ladies and gentlemen
[09:27] Aldo Stern: we are well over an hour now...
[09:27] Aldo Stern: in the event more need to leave soon
[09:28] Aldo Stern: are there final thoughts you would wish to share?
[09:28] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Good goverment should rest on a system, not only on a ruler
[09:28] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): and it must help people grow to their full potential
[09:28] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): and the people who work in that system, they need the education...and the civic virtues
[09:29] JJ Drinkwater: My final thought is that a government...or a nation....must not ignore the good and the bad qualities of human nature.
[09:29] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): true
[09:29] Aldo Stern: what do you mean Signor Drinkwater?
[09:30] JJ Drinkwater: We have spoken of two forms of government, and in both cases have had much talk of human virtue, and human vice
[09:30] JJ Drinkwater: Human virtue to pursue the collective good, and human vice to subvert it
[09:31] JJ Drinkwater: So it appears we cannot think of government without thinking of those who govern and are governed
[09:31] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): perhaps a better word, rather than vice...
[09:31] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): would be human weakness
[09:31] JJ Drinkwater bows to Freifrau Kuhr
[09:32] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): ...and history has taught us that every virtuous man has a dark side were vice resides, we do good in having in mind that both sides coexist.
[09:32] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): my friends, I am afraid it is time for me to depart
[09:32] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): for speaking of duties
[09:32] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): awww
[09:32] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): I have mine on behalf of the regency council
[09:32] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): too bad
[09:32] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): *smiles* so i suppose I am still behaving like a typical german, driven by my sense of duty
[09:33] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): I thank you all for this enlightened chat
[09:33] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): driven by my sense of duty
[09:33] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): I wish you all a good day
[09:33] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): take care Frau Diogenia
[09:33] JJ Drinkwater: Farewell, Madame
[09:33] Aldo Stern: it has been a pleasure baronessa
[09:33] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): Auf wiedersehen
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updated by @aldo-stern: 06 Oct 2016 06:08:29AM