MELIORIA Coffee House salon

8:00 am, 17 August 2011

TOPIC: CRIME & PUNISHMENT

ATTENDING: Aldo Stern, Diogeneia Kuhr, Mercury Gandt, Serenek Timeless

PHOTOS: https://picasaweb.google.com/109722012977197738104/MelioriaSalons

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[08:05] Aldo Stern: I suspect we shall have a modest turnout

[08:05] Aldo Stern: perhaps the topic is considered by some a bit "dry"

[08:05] Mercury Gandt: On the contrary, I fond it rather "juicy"

[08:06] Diogeneia: I would think so

[08:06] Aldo Stern: it is a topic that certainly affects us all...

[08:07] Aldo Stern: after all, when you look at crime from a philosophical standpoint...

[08:08] Aldo Stern: it is an attack on that social agreement that makes society function

[08:09] Diogeneia: I have been looking at what various thinkers have written on crime, and they all seem to agree that human nature is inclined to do things we would call crime, and it must be punished

[08:10] Aldo Stern: oh I am sure that there are those who think man in his ideal state would not turn to crime, but I fear our practical experience suggests otherwise

[08:10] Aldo Stern: what do you think Donna Sere

[08:10] Sere Timeless: The notion of punishment is deeply seated in religion.

[08:10] Aldo Stern: is human nature inclined more to be good, if given the chance, or are we naturally selfish?

[08:11] Sere Timeless: The fallible nature of mankind goes back to the original sin in the Garden of Eden.

[08:12] Diogeneia: so you think we are naturally inclined to pick pockets and cheat at cards because of Adam and eve?

[08:12] Mercury Gandt: I can only tell you, what I have seen in my life:

[08:12] Mercury Gandt: I know so called criminals, who

[08:12] Mercury Gandt: after committing crimes, never feel shame or regret - ever

[08:13] Mercury Gandt: They are only bothered by the possibility of getting caught

[08:14] Sere Timeless: And yet there are so many other people who would never even consider breaking the law unless their life and well-being depended on it.

[08:14] Aldo Stern: so should we work harder to teach people that they should want to obey laws, or is the threat of being caught and punished more useful?

[08:15] Diogeneia: maybe a bit of both

[08:15] Mercury Gandt: Or is it in their character maybe?

[08:15] Aldo Stern: Well Donna Sere is saying it is the character of some to never wish to break the laws

[08:15] Sere Timeless: Certainly one cannot underestimate the value of punishment as a deterrent. Some people obviously need more deterrent than others.

[08:16] Aldo Stern: and the nature of others to be criminals

[08:16] Aldo Stern: so perhaps Baronessa is correct we need both encouragement--or prevention and punishment

[08:16] Mercury Gandt: What most surprised me in these readings is, that the authors believe in the good nature of people

[08:16] Aldo Stern: but how much punishment

[08:16] Aldo Stern: and what kind is necessary?

[08:17] Diogeneia: in the Prussian army, the worst crime was desertion...

[08:17] Diogeneia: you know how the great king worked to prevent it?

[08:18] Sere Timeless: And what was the punishment for desertion?

[08:18] Diogeneia: first he made sure the soldiers were fed well and had pride in their profession

[08:18] Diogeneia: then he reduced the chances of deserting...

[08:18] Diogeneia: for example he would never set up a camp near a forest if he could help it

[08:18] Diogeneia: the woods are a deserter's best friend

[08:19] Diogeneia: and then of course if you deserted and were caught by the gendarmerie, you were flogged

[08:19] Diogeneia: so it was prevention AND punishment

[08:19] Mercury Gandt: Very wise, I think

[08:20] Aldo Stern: On the other hand, you have penal code such as in England, where pretty much everything you technically can be executed for is everything:

[08:21] Aldo Stern: Theft of property is treated as seriously as treason or murder

[08:21] Sere Timeless: Which gets to the question of how one decides the appropriate extent of the punishment for a certain crime.

[08:22] Diogeneia: ah but if your crime is not serious in England, can't they transport you instead of hanging you?

[08:22] Aldo Stern: well they were doing that, but now that their American colonies are in rebellion they will need a new place to send convicts to.

[08:23] Aldo Stern: Let us go back for a moment to Signor Gandt's comment

[08:24] Aldo Stern: you observed that in the readings--Rousseau, Beccaria and Voltaire, there was an emphasis you thought, on the goodness of human nature?

[08:24] Mercury Gandt: Yes - they believe, every criminal can be useful or good in the future

[08:25] Mercury Gandt: And they are able to make self-improvement by the punishment

[08:25] Diogeneia: ah but I think Voltaire was also saying some you can't make them good themselves...

[08:26] Diogeneia: but you can turn them into a useful thing for society by sentencing them to labor in the dockyards or rowing a galley or something like that

[08:26] Aldo Stern: which the French do of course...

[08:26] Aldo Stern: they have gotten away from executing men and instead send them to work in the royal dockyards and arsenals

[08:27] Aldo Stern: basically as slaves

[08:27] Mercury Gandt: Very economic (smiles)

[08:28] Aldo Stern: but are you suggesting Signor Gandt, that the criminal more than likely can't be changed in his ways? that the leopard may never change his spots?

[08:28] Mercury Gandt: I doubt that this kind of work would be useful at all, done by people who hate it, living in chains

[08:28] Diogeneia: ha you are probably right

[08:29] Mercury Gandt: and all their thoughts are around eloping

[08:29] Diogeneia: I am not so sure I would wish to sail on a ship that had been repaired by angry antisocial lunatics

[08:29] Mercury Gandt: One of the authors said: give them work and they will be honest

[08:29] Mercury Gandt: but I would say: give them a goal in their life to reach

[08:30] Mercury Gandt: and they won't be criminals

[08:30] Aldo Stern: oh?

[08:30] Mercury Gandt: give them a reward for their work

[08:30] Sere Timeless: Voltaire, I believe, said that

[08:30] Mercury Gandt: which they cab gain realistically, though not easily

[08:31] Aldo Stern: so then, Signor Gandt, do you basically agree with the idea that the death penalty should not be used as often as it is in some places such as England and a few of the various Italian city states?

[08:32] Mercury Gandt: I have never met anyone committing such a serious crime, so

[08:32] Mercury Gandt: I cannot imagine who this man or woman could be...

[08:32] Mercury Gandt: but

[08:33] Mercury Gandt: I remember one of my older friends telling about the execution of Damiens

[08:33] Mercury Gandt: And I never forget it, though I hadn't been there at all!

[08:34] Diogeneia: I think I agree that if you execute someone, it must be for the worst thing possible...

[08:35] Mercury Gandt: Yes, exceptional and very rarely done - to remember us what happened in that case

[08:35] Diogeneia: in a place like England I think hanging is no deterrent, as you get hung for stealing a watch or shooting a man dead

[08:36] Diogeneia: so if you are a highway man, might you not figure, "well I just stole this fellow's watch, I may as well shoot him so he doesn't tell on me...I get hung either way"

[08:36] Sere Timeless: If laws are created to ensure that everyone is behaving consistently with the common good, shouldn't punishments also be consistent with the common good?

[08:36] Aldo Stern: a good point Baronessa

[08:37] Sere Timeless: A dead criminal can't contribute anything, but a thief forced into labor to repay can contribute something.

[08:37] Aldo Stern: could you elaborate on that idea, Donna Sere?

[08:38] Aldo Stern: so you are saying that as Beccaria suggests, the punishment should fit the crime?

[08:38] Sere Timeless: I do think that is best for society, Professore.

[08:38] Sere Timeless: And the punishments need to be consistent for whoever commits a certain crime.

[08:39] Sere Timeless: I find that the wealthy can get away with quite a lot because of their status ins society.

[08:39] Diogeneia: this is why in Prussian army they flog the deserter, they don't shoot him if they don't have to....they hate to waste a trained man

[08:40] Aldo Stern: yes, laws are not applied evenly in most cases

[08:41] Diogeneia: I think punishment works best as a deterrent if the law is applied justly for all

[08:42] Diogeneia: but I might say differently if I was actually wealthy

[08:42] Sere Timeless: And what should the punishment be for the judge who does not apply the law equally?

[08:42] Aldo Stern: a good question

[08:43] Mercury Gandt: Well, there is everywhere a monarch and a government who makes the law

[08:43] Diogeneia: *shrugs* if he is wealthy then he should be punished where he would feel it most...his backside is probably too well padded to feel much sting of a flogging, so fine him and hit him in the pocketbook

[08:43] Mercury Gandt: The monarch is above the law

[08:44] Mercury Gandt: I'm afraid, the monarch's tradition is defining the philosophy of punishment in his country.

[08:44] Mercury Gandt: I mean if the monarch is practical, like your Prussian King the system of punishment is about preventing, in a practical and economical way

[08:45] Aldo Stern: perhaps the monarch is one class of citizen where the best course is to educate them and make sure they understand civic virtue and their responsibility to society

[08:45] Sere Timeless: And if the monarch does not apply the laws equally will there not be revolt as there is in the English colonies in North America?

[08:45] Mercury Gandt: Yes - if the monarch is not sure about his own rule...

[08:46] Aldo Stern: though there have been examples of King who has been punished...your English parliament cut off King Charles head after all

[08:46] Mercury Gandt: he will force punishments by pure power

[08:46] Mercury Gandt: Punishments will all about the monarchy's power

[08:46] Mercury Gandt: and about people or our society

[08:47] Diogeneia: perhaps you punish a monarch by taking away some of his power

[08:47] Aldo Stern: let us go back to the issue of death penalties

[08:47] Aldo Stern: what do you think are crimes for which it should be applied?

[08:48] Mercury Gandt: Yes, I think, Beccaria was implying King Charles when writing about the death penalty....

[08:48] Aldo Stern: Rousseau too, perhaps...he was saying that you only execute someone who has the power and the will to hurt the state

[08:49] Mercury Gandt: Yes... they describe a kind of dictatorship

[08:49] Diogeneia: Like a King who is acting badly?

[08:49] Mercury Gandt smiles on the boldness of the Baronessa

[08:49] Aldo Stern: what about murder?

[08:50] Aldo Stern: Donna Sere you mentioned the religious origins of our sense of crime and punishment--is an "eye for an eye" just?

[08:50] Sere Timeless: That is the Old Testament view of punishment, Professore.

[08:50] Aldo Stern: so then would it be right for society to kill a man who had killed one of his fellow citizens?

[08:51] Sere Timeless: The more Christian view is to have a criminal redeem himself by penance and good works.

[08:51] Mercury Gandt: And now we see the moral point of view of punishments

[08:52] Diogeneia: if good works is being an unpaid workers in the royal shipyard, I still don't want to sail on a ship that has been fixed by a crazy killer

[08:53] Aldo Stern: always the pragmatist, Baronessa

[08:54] Diogeneia: you bet. I didn't get this old by relying on an idealized view of human nature

[08:54] Sere Timeless: I should rather sail in a ship whose timbers had been hewn by a criminal in the royal forests.

[08:54] Mercury Gandt laughs - And pragmatism will always conquer the moral point of view

[08:54] Mercury Gandt: Better though, than a power-centered point of view conquering

[08:55] Aldo Stern: but what about deterring crime?

[08:55] Aldo Stern: what do you think Signor Gandt, you say you know some criminal types--what would turn them away from a life of crime?

[08:56] Mercury Gandt: Hmmm... some of them are in the Debtors' Prison

[08:56] Mercury Gandt: Maybe laws would prevent them to choose crime

[08:57] Mercury Gandt: That kind of laws can allow them to follow their plans - for example, new laws about inheritance, marriage

[08:58] Diogeneia: well to me, and this is as a pragmatist...

[08:58] Mercury Gandt: Laws that can offer them the possibility to earn their living

[08:58] Diogeneia: I think you make sure people have enough to eat, they are protected from abuse, and they know their role in society is important...

[08:58] Diogeneia: less so they will be to turn to crime

[08:59] Sere Timeless: Wise observations, Baronessa.

[09:00] Diogeneia: not so wise I think--I just know what I know from watching people

[09:00] Mercury Gandt: And I agree, you are right

[09:00] Sere Timeless: What does the group think about the practice of branding criminals like livestock so that they carry the stigma of their crime for the rest of their lives?

[09:02] Mercury Gandt: Very medieval?

[09:02] Aldo Stern: I think that goes against Signor Gandt's point that you have to enable people to make a living to keep them from crime...if you brand someone and mark them forever, will it not be harder for them to find work?

[09:02] Sere Timeless: Do you think it is unnecessary or counter-productive Signore Gandt?

[09:02] Aldo Stern: not many people willingly will hire a branded thief, I suspect

[09:02] Aldo Stern: so that person will have no choice but to turn to crime

[09:03] Mercury Gandt: That stigma will force him to stay on the way of crime....

[09:03] Diogeneia: yes, exactly

[09:03] Diogeneia: it is silly, where/ is the sense in branding someone? it is just being cruel and stupid

[09:04] Mercury Gandt: Well.. (looking at the fingers of the ladies, searching for a wedding ring...)

[09:04] Aldo Stern: alas Baronessa, cruelty and stupidity are hallmarks of many legal systems throughout Europe

[09:04] Mercury Gandt: Branding someone...

[09:06] Aldo Stern: it is like the old practice of cutting off a thief's hand--probably another Old Testament carryover, do you think, Donna Sere?

[09:06] Aldo Stern: that is another form of branding

[09:06] Aldo Stern: and one which made it even harder for the miscreant to find useful work

[09:07] Sere Timeless: It seems quite similar in intent, though branding does make it possible for the former criminal to do honest work in the future.

[09:07] Sere Timeless: Cutting off a thief's hand renders him incapable to doing much useful work.

[09:08] Diogeneia: maybe all a fellow is good for then is begging

[09:09] Aldo Stern: I know some people might argue that such punishments serve as a lesson tithe public and discourage others from turning to crime...

[09:09] Aldo Stern: but I have not seen crime greatly reduced in places where the punishments are cruel and numerous.

[09:10] Mercury Gandt: Except, there are no more assassination against the French King since the execution of Damiens

[09:11] Sere Timeless: Not yet at least, Signor Gandt.

[09:11] Mercury Gandt: not yet

[09:11] Diogeneia: and who knows maybe there are none for other reasons

[09:12] Diogeneia: just because one thing follows another, does not mean the one caused the other

[09:12] Mercury Gandt: For instance? what other reasons can be considered?

[09:13] Aldo Stern: perhaps the king's network of informers is doing a better job ...

[09:13] Mercury Gandt: I would never think of that... (laughs)

[09:14] Aldo Stern: perhaps the king is staying in places where it is harder for possible assassins to get at him

[09:14] Aldo Stern: he avoids going to Paris

[09:14] Aldo Stern: he avoids contact with people outside the inner circles of the court

[09:14] Mercury Gandt: Indeed it's true

[09:15] Mercury Gandt: Because the conditions in his country are hardly any better...

[09:15] Aldo Stern: yes

[09:18] Aldo Stern: although he was probably a bit mad

[09:18] Sere Timeless: Professore, this has been a fascinating discussion, but I'm afraid I must take my leave.

[09:18] Aldo Stern: Donna Sere, thank you for joining us

[09:18] Diogeneia: Auf wiedersehen

[09:18] Sere Timeless: Signore Gandt, Baronessa it has been lovely to see you. And Professore also.

[09:19] Mercury Gandt: It was my pleasure

[09:19] Aldo Stern: thank you for your contributions to the discussion

[09:19] Sere Timeless curtsies.
updated by @aldo-stern: 06 Oct 2016 06:09:14AM