A number of our friends were not able to join in the discussion this Saturday due to the big snowstorm in the NE knocking out their power and internet. Consequently, I am posting a cleaned up version of the transcript. Thank you to all who joined us and all who were interested.

09:37] Aldo Stern: well as for the question of how we found Lady Miller's book and decided to have a talk about it -- that's a good place to start our discussion today
[09:37] Gloriana Maertens: I loved the NCs, by the way, reading them was a fun way to spend the morning.
[09:37] Aldo Stern: I just happened to see a reference to lady Miller's book in some other online articles
[09:37] Aldo Stern: and found there the only e-book version was the scan that had never been edited
[09:38] Aldo Stern: so I took the part that had to do with the part of Italy that our sim is connected with
[09:38] Aldo Stern: we are after all, technically a part of the Kingdom of Naples here
[09:38] Aldo Stern: so I took the most interesting section related to the time she spent getting to and staying in Naples
[09:39] Aldo Stern: may I ask if you enjoyed it?
[09:39] Aldo Stern: it sounds like Gloriana did...thank you
[09:39] Vulpine Eldrich: it's an enjoyment I look forward to, sadly I did little more than read enough to see what it was. I'm here to do more listening than chatting
[09:40] Aldo Stern: we're glad to have you here, Vulpine -- listening OR chatting
[09:40] Aldo Stern: or a bit of both
[09:40] Vulpine Eldrich: as always
[09:41] Gloriana Maertens: I was very amused by the attention paid to the lack of observing precedence and etiquette
[09:41] Aldo Stern: hah yes!
[09:41] Vulpine Eldrich: which makes rp here a bit more likely for those of us not acquainted with 18th century etiquette anyway
[09:42] Aldo Stern: I don't know if the King and Queen of Naples were like that all the time...I assume there may have been some other ceremonial situations that were more formal
[09:42] Aldo Stern: but as for their fetes and dinners and opera evenings
[09:42] Aldo Stern: it certainly sounds like they were pretty easy going
[09:43] Gloriana Maertens: ...but there still was attention paid, for all of that. Her notes wrt standing with a drink in her hand, and the Queen's attention thereby to put her at ease.
[09:43] Aldo Stern: and yes, Vulpine, we always tell people that they shouldn't expect too much formality here
[09:43] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Thank goodness for that
[09:43] Aldo Stern: as even in Naples, the King and Queen aren't too crazy about it
[09:43] Vulpine Eldrich: so how and where were these letters published?
[09:43] Aldo Stern: lady Miller wrote them to a friend while she was traveling in 1770-71
[09:43] Aldo Stern: another English lady who lived in France
[09:44] Aldo Stern: she had them published as a book in 1776
[09:44] Aldo Stern: with certain details removed
[09:44] Aldo Stern: like names of people who might not have wanted to be talked about in a public way
[09:45] Aldo Stern: the book was published in London and apparently sold rather well
[09:45] Vulpine Eldrich: the names have been changed to protect the innocent....
[09:45] Aldo Stern: I was telling the folks before you got here, if you want to see a e-book that was scanned from an original
[09:45] Aldo Stern: there is a link in one of the books on the sidetable over under the Minerva painting
[09:46] Aldo Stern: so besides the lack of formal etiquette and courtly rules...
[09:46] Aldo Stern: were there other things that struck any of you as particularly interesting in the excerpts?
[09:47] Vulpine Eldrich: the main thing that catches my attention is that a woman author can have a moderately good following as a writer at this time and place
[09:47] Aldo Stern: yes
[09:47] Aldo Stern: she also had a literary salon of her own at her home in Britain
[09:48] Aldo Stern: though a number of people thought she was a bit pretentious
[09:48] Mercury Gandt: You can't mean it, Aldo
[09:48] Aldo Stern: perhaps overreaching her station
[09:48] Aphrodite Macbain: normal
[09:48] Aldo Stern: but that was from people like Horace Walpole and he was snotty about everyone and everything
[09:48] Aphrodite Macbain: 'twas ever thus
[09:48] Gloriana Maertens chuckles
[09:49] MariaLouisa Muircastle:
[09:49] Aldo Stern: Horace Walpole was actually pretty much a jerk
[09:49] Aldo Stern: but the other people who had disdianful things to say about Lady Miller..well it may have been jealousy
[09:49] Aldo Stern: good question Aph
[09:50] Aphrodite Macbain: strong women are often the target of fools
[09:50] Mercury Gandt says nothing so far about Lady Miller, but prepares to sharpen his rapier-like wit against her
[09:50] Aphrodite Macbain: laughs
[09:50] Aphrodite Macbain: then I'll pull out my hat pin
[09:50] Aldo Stern: in an odd way it's kind of like the way that people are so critical of King Ferdinand
[09:50] Gloriana Maertens: Was it that she was a writer herself that people found objectionable? Or that she was so public about it - the salon and so forth?
[09:50] Aphrodite Macbain: how?
[09:51] Aphrodite Macbain: there were women writers in her day
[09:51] Aldo Stern: I'm not sure Gloriana, but yes, it was probably that it was very public
[09:51] Aldo Stern: and she was well known
[09:51] Gloriana Maertens: "Not befitting the modesty more suitable for a woman" and such like, I'm sure. ^.^
[09:52] Aldo Stern: a lot of the criticism was about her appearance..which indicates to me that it was just people being spiteful
[09:52] Aldo Stern: but back to my point about King Ferdinand
[09:52] Aldo Stern: here is a guy who is called the "Re lazzarone"
[09:52] Aldo Stern: the beggar or rascal king
[09:52] Aldo Stern: because he hangs around with the common people
[09:52] Aldo Stern: and speaks their dialect
[09:53] Aldo Stern: and is very informal
[09:53] Mercury Gandt: I didn't know that, interesting
[09:53] Aldo Stern: and not well educated
[09:53] Aldo Stern: ...so he is called by some a terrible king
[09:54] Aldo Stern: but it's interesting to me that he managed to rule for 50 years and when the French came and drove him out of Naples it was the common people who rose up and fought on his behalf to get Naples back for him
[09:55] Aldo Stern: So he is criticized as a lout and a lunkhead....but I ask you, was it jealusy? was it just that people thought he didn't act like a King should? I would argue ...a King who is loved by the common people so they would fight for him -- sounds to me like he was doing pretty well
[09:55] Aldo Stern: certainly beats the heck out of Louis the XVI on that front
[09:55] Aphrodite Macbain: was he Italian? from Naples?
[09:55] Aldo Stern: he was a Spanish Bourbon but he was born in Naples, I think
[09:56] Aldo Stern: just checked
[09:56] Aldo Stern: yes he was born in Naples
[09:56] Aphrodite Macbain: So he wasn't really a Neapolitan, but managed to integrate himself into them?
[09:56] Aldo Stern: yes -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_I_of_the_Two_Sicilies#Childhood
[09:57] Aphrodite Macbain: 50 years is a long time to rule
[09:57] Aldo Stern: and the Queen Maria Carolina, was of course Austrian
[09:57] Aldo Stern: their chief minister for many years was of English descent
[09:58] Aphrodite Macbain: Interesting that they kicked out the Jesuits
[09:58] Aldo Stern: and you may have noticed when Lady Miller was talking about the people she met
[09:58] Aldo Stern: they were from many different places
[09:58] Vulpine Eldrich: significant, particularly at that time
[09:58] Gloriana Maertens nods. i did note that.
[09:58] Aphrodite Macbain: Naples was a melting pot
[09:58] Aldo Stern: yes
[09:58] Aldo Stern: like our island
[09:58] Aphrodite Macbain:
[09:58] Aldo Stern: and the English in particular were very popular
[09:59] Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder why
[09:59] Aldo Stern: I don't think I included it in the notes, but Lady Miller said she thought the Neapolitans liked English people better than English people liked themselves
[09:59] Aldo Stern: But as far as why the Neapolitans liked the English so much --- well that's a good question
[10:00] Aldo Stern: why do you think they may have liked the English so much, Aph?
[10:00] Aphrodite Macbain: lol
[10:00] Aphrodite Macbain: because they were so different?
[10:00] Aldo Stern: how so?
[10:00] Aphrodite Macbain: because they offered an alternate culture - more organized perhaps, more democratic
[10:01] Aphrodite Macbain: I am only guessing
[10:01] Mercury Gandt: (smiles) My guess is, they had spent a fortune on their travels
[10:01] Aphrodite Macbain: They were also enemies of France
[10:01] Gloriana Maertens: The enemy of my enemy is my friend?
[10:01] Aphrodite Macbain: something like that
[10:01] Aldo Stern: yes, Mercury...tourists spending lots of money are fun to have around
[10:02] Aldo Stern: but tourists can also be unpleasant -- think the "ugly American" of the 50s and 60s -- and you can hate them even as you cheerfully take their money
[10:02] Gloriana Maertens: ...there's also the Mary connection, with Phillip, but that's about a century past and didn't turn out that well, all things considered. So maybe not that.
[10:02] Aphrodite Macbain: yes, they are wanted, but can also be resented. Especially if they try to impose their cultural habits and values on local culture
[10:03] Mercury Gandt: ...as Lady Miller hints sometimes in her letters, Aph..
[10:03] Aldo Stern: That's a very good point Aph...and that's the difference here, perhaps -- think about the Englishman that most Neapolitans know as the representative of the UK
[10:03] Aldo Stern: Sir William Hamilton -- for many many years, the British ambassador to Naples
[10:04] Aldo Stern: In effect, the Englishman that most Neapolitans knew best was a very good example of some of the best aspects of his culture and socieity -- not only is he a genuinely nice guy but he loves and embraces Italian culture
[10:04] Aphrodite Macbain: smiles- who couldn't?
[10:05] Aldo Stern: as far as being a nice guy
[10:05] Aldo Stern: did you note how generous and welcoming he is with Lady Miller and her husband?
[10:05] Aldo Stern: and he has musical evenings at his home every week
[10:05] Aldo Stern: both Englishmen, and Italians are welcomed
[10:05] Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder what role Lady Hamilton played in all this.
[10:06] Aldo Stern: lots -- but the lady Hamilton who Lady Miller met was the first wife of the ambassador (she dies in 1782, Emma comes in 1786) and Emma Hamilton was helpful in making connections in Naples society too
[10:06] Aldo Stern: she was charming
[10:06] Aldo Stern: and pretty
[10:06] Aphrodite Macbain: or was she more interested in Lord Nelson
[10:06] Aldo Stern: not at this time
[10:06] Aldo Stern: Nelson isn't there until the late 1790s
[10:06] Aldo Stern: this is 20 years before that
[10:07] Aphrodite Macbain: nods
[10:07] Aldo Stern: on another note, what did you think of lady Miller's account of actually getting to Naples from Rome?
[10:08] Gloriana Maertens: What a horrid journey. >.<
[10:08] Mercury Gandt: If I had read it in 1776, I would have never travel to Italy
[10:08] Aldo Stern: at least not maybe by land
[10:08] Aphrodite Macbain: I haven't had a chance to read this. How did she travel? By boat or by carriage?
[10:08] Aldo Stern: carriage
[10:09] Gloriana Maertens: and a series of really bad accommodations
[10:09] Aldo Stern: follwing the route of the old Roman road
[10:09] Aphrodite Macbain: and the roads must have been terrible and dangerous
[10:09] Aldo Stern: part of which is actually under water
[10:09] Aphrodite Macbain: rainy season?
[10:09] Aldo Stern: I loved some of the detail
[10:09] Gloriana Maertens: ...you get the feeling they existed merely to provide a roof and to separate tourists with their money.
[10:09] Aldo Stern: not just about the food and the inns with no windows...but things like the fact that her husband kept a blunderbuss with him during the trip
[10:10] Mercury Gandt:
[10:10] Aphrodite Macbain: what a time of year to travel!
[10:10] Aldo Stern: they were traveling in Winter
[10:10] Vulpine Eldrich: I doubt they were deliberately bad, usually that sort of place has nothing to spend on its maintenance anyway
[10:10] Aldo Stern: yes. clearly these were country people without a lot of resources for themselves, let alone travelers
[10:11] Gloriana Maertens: I suppose I shouldn't expect Holiday Inns. :D
[10:11] Aldo Stern: though some were better than others
[10:12] Aldo Stern: and one should keep in mind that much of Italy had been fought over for the previous several centuries -- war and passing armies tend to reduce the amount of resources in the countryside for generations
[10:12] Vulpine Eldrich: she's not going to complain about them being bad if there aren't better elsewhere (though obviously nowhere on her route to Naples)
[10:12] Vulpine Eldrich: and was about to be again, if I read Ferdinand's history correctly... first the French revolution, then the Napoleonic wars
[10:13] Aldo Stern: yes
[10:13] Aldo Stern: that may also go back to some of why the Neapolitans liked the British
[10:13] Aldo Stern: there wasn't the same kind of history there
[10:14] Aldo Stern: the French the Austrians, the Spanish had at various times conquered and ruled southern Italy
[10:14] Aldo Stern: they came in, ruled things (usually badly) and then got driven out by someone else -- and the Italians didn't forget this...
[10:14] Aldo Stern: after all the Sicilians still talk about the Sicilian Vespers like it happened last week
[10:14] Aldo Stern: when it was actually in the 1200's
[10:15] Aphrodite Macbain: sounds like Ireland
[10:15] Aldo Stern: yes
[10:16] Vulpine Eldrich: hardly unique in areas with long lasting cultural memories. Though modern Americans don't have much experience with that.
[10:16] Aldo Stern: well sort of...
[10:17] Aphrodite Macbain: I will tiptoe away and make coffee
[10:17] Aldo Stern: I worked for a while for the Pequot Indian tribe in Conn. and their war with the English colonists was still a raw, sore issue for them
[10:17] Aldo Stern: and that happened in 1637
[10:17] Gloriana Maertens waves to Aphrodite
[10:17] Aldo Stern: but they talk about it like it was last week
[10:18] Aldo Stern: thank you Aph
[10:18] Vulpine Eldrich nods
[10:18] Aldo Stern: see you in a bit
[10:18] Aldo Stern: would you mind if I would call your attention to a few things that I found particularity intriguing
[10:18] Vulpine Eldrich: please do
[10:18] Aldo Stern: well besides the lack of formality that Gloriana mentioned
[10:19] Aldo Stern: and the trip details...
[10:19] Aldo Stern: ...I loved the blunderbuss...
[10:19] Aldo Stern: but that we also found evidence that English visitors in southern Italy DID in fact enjoy sea bathing
in the 18th century
[10:19] Aldo Stern: and from the description it seemed that Italians did too
[10:19] Mercury Gandt: Yes I smiled reading that part
[10:20] Vulpine Eldrich: it certainly makes our own facilities less an oddity and more of a fashionable thing
[10:20] Mercury Gandt: And they were good swimmers!
[10:20] Aldo Stern: ha, yes Mercury so the next time some know-it-all tries to tell you that our bathing beach is implausible, you can tell him we have documentation and he can go jump in the lake
[10:21] Gloriana Maertens: ...literally.
[10:21] Vulpine Eldrich: preferably with his clothes on to avoid offending the refined facilities of any piscine relatives he might have below
[10:21] Mercury Gandt: I haven't had the slightest doubt about it, Aldo
[10:21] Aldo Stern: and I also enjoyed the descriptions of the musical evenings at the Hamilton's... that it was not just having professionals or the hired help perform music...but something that guests and hosts joined in as well
[10:22] Vulpine Eldrich: now that's more like a party
[10:22] Mercury Gandt: karaoke party :P
[10:22] Aldo Stern: hahah yes, sort of
[10:23] Aldo Stern: and again, I was very impressed by the variety of nationalities that were represented...
[10:23] Aldo Stern: like the lady who provided lodging to lady Miller in Naples was the widow of a Spanish Marquis...which was also a very cool detail -- the idea of upper class ladies making ends meet in very practical ways
[10:25] Vulpine Eldrich: and nicely done, since having guests would be a noble thing to do (the fact that they are paying for it a small detail easily ignored when convenient)
[10:25] Aldo Stern: yes!
[10:25] Gloriana Maertens: "Proper" guests, at that. ^.^
[10:25] Vulpine Eldrich giggles
[10:26] Gloriana Maertens: ...the letters of introductions and multi-state social networking mentioned was of interest to me as well
[10:26] Aldo Stern: oh yes
[10:27] Mercury Gandt: I know I'm unjust saying this since I didn't know all her letters but I missed a kind of personality from her writings - I don't have an idea what kind of a person she could be
[10:27] Aldo Stern: that's a good question Mercury
[10:28] Aldo Stern: I would be curious if you try reading the entire book if it would give you a better sense
[10:28] Mercury Gandt: I don't dare to take the risk :P
[10:29] Aldo Stern: but i do agree with you, you have to sort of read between the lines and do some overall analysis to get an idea of what lady Miller is like as a person
[10:30] Aldo Stern: I have the sense she was a pretty adaptable person..essentially kind, and yes, a bit of a suck-up, perhaps
[10:30] Mercury Gandt: Disciplined then - she doesn't give out her opinion easily - I can't decide if she is whining, or objective when writing about the inns, for example
[10:30] Mercury Gandt: Or she likes the queen or not
[10:31] Aldo Stern: oh I think there is a difference between whining and complaining
[10:31] Vulpine Eldrich: She notes that she's rather tired of repeating herself on those
[10:31] Mercury Gandt: Surely there is - and I can't see which she is
[10:31] Aldo Stern: I think the really interesting aspect of it
[10:32] Aldo Stern: and perhaps the only way of knowing for sure would be to talk to her husband
[10:32] Vulpine Eldrich laughs
[10:32] Aldo Stern: she may have soldiered through it all, and only really complained to her friend in the letters
[10:32] Gloriana Maertens: there's a bit of wit to it though. when she describes the broth of a stew as a close cousin to the oil used for the lamps, for instance.
[10:32] Vulpine Eldrich: actually, it is something to read between the lines when someone describes themselves
[10:33] Vulpine Eldrich: other times, it's a bit more obvious...
[10:33] Aldo Stern: or she may have whined the whole time and her husband possibly wanted at some point to sell her to the banditi if she didn't close her pie-hole
[10:33] Mercury Gandt: lol
[10:34] Aldo Stern: But inthe end, I suspect she wasn't a bad traveling companion...and she certainly had diverse interests, including the art and history around them
[10:35] Gloriana Maertens: But in a Cousin Violet kind of way? Don't get me wrong, I loves me some snark. ^.^
[10:35] Vulpine Eldrich: a necessary breadth of interest to desire traveling as a tourist in the first place
[10:35] Aldo Stern: yes, very true Vulpine
[10:35] Vulpine Eldrich: (why ELSE are you going to go suffer in inns with no windows and rope beds)
[10:35] Aldo Stern: otherwise you can stay at home and be comfortable
[10:36] Aldo Stern: again I invite you to take the link and look at the actual book
[10:36] Aldo Stern: I think we are at an end and should, if possible, go join Aph in the coffee house, which is more IC
[10:36] Mercury Gandt: And Lawrence Stern on the shelves? Will he be the next subject of a discussion?
[10:37] Aldo Stern: possibly
[10:37] Aldo Stern: we have one more session to wrap up Tristram Shandy
[10:37] Aldo Stern: and then JJ and I were talking about maybe doing Sterne's travel book
[10:37] Aldo Stern: but that would only be may two sessions
[10:37] Aldo Stern: then maybe we can move on to Casanova's memoirs, eh?
[10:38] Mercury Gandt:
[10:38] Mercury Gandt: Now HE has a personality in his writing!