Saturday, May 26

[10:06] Aldo Stern: ((thank you for coming--it is good to see you all--as always please keep in mind that we are doing this discussion in the context of the year 1781--so exerccise your imagination and think like a person of the enlightenment!))

10:07] Myron Verne: Fencing and duels can be seen from many angles...which one should we start with?

[10:07] Aldo Stern: let me ask this first

[10:07] Aldo Stern: how many of you here have actually fought a duel..not frnedly fencing

[10:07] Aldo Stern: but a duel

[10:07] Aldo Stern: an affair of honor

[10:08] EllementaryPartical: shudders

[10:08] Mercury Gandt: Me, definitely

[10:08] Myron Verne: I did once, when i was younger

[10:08] JJ Drinkwater: I fought a duel once, but the weapons were...unusual

[10:08] Aldo Stern: yes

[10:08] Aldo Stern: that is always a possiblity

[10:08] Aldo Stern: may I ask why you each took part in a duel?

[10:09] Myron Verne: Mercury?

[10:09] Mercury Gandt: An unknown gentleman made insulting remarks on ladies in my presence

[10:09] JJ Drinkwater: A certain Colonel Somme impugned my behavior towards a duchess

[10:10] Aldo Stern: ahh

[10:10] Myron Verne: Personally, a courtier insulted my family...

[10:10] Aldo Stern: there is often the honor and dignity of a lady

[10:10] Aldo Stern: and family

[10:10] Myron Verne: I did want to challenge him, but could not keep it unnoticed

[10:11] Myron Verne: so I replied to him in the most sarcastic manner

[10:11] Aldo Stern: so...did all of you make the challenge?

[10:11] Myron Verne: and he challenged me to a duel, I could not go back

[10:11] Aldo Stern: rather than being the chllenged?

[10:11] Aldo Stern: ahhh I see

[10:12] Myron Verne: Nowadays i wouldn't act like this, but I was younger

[10:12] JJ Drinkwater: I was the challenged, not the challenger

[10:12] Aldo Stern: but you would have challenged under different circumstances?

[10:12] Myron Verne: Never

[10:12] Mercury Gandt: I was the challenger and I'm always prepared to be the challenger

[10:12] Aldo Stern: *smiles*

[10:12] Myron Verne: I am a Noble of the Enightenment, trying to put honor in its right place, after reason and humanity

[10:13] Aldo Stern: do any of you regret having taken part in the duel?

[10:13] JJ Drinkwater: Not in the least

[10:13] Myron Verne: I don't, but I wouldn't do it gain

[10:13] Mercury Gandt: Not at all, I would do the same

[10:13] Myron Verne: I won:-)

[10:13] Myron Verne: but did not kill him!

[10:13] Aldo Stern: that was an honorable thing to do

[10:14] Aldo Stern: as well as something far less complicated

[10:14] Aldo Stern: after all, in many places dueling is actually illegal

[10:14] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): I have also participated in a duel...or two in my younger days

[10:14] Aldo Stern: ANd if you kill someone, you can be tried for murder

[10:14] Myron Verne: exactly

[10:14] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): again a question of honour

[10:14] EllementaryPartical: times change and so do values

[10:15] Myron Verne: I would say this one of the reasons, duelling is so popular in the Nobility: because it's illegal!

[10:15] Aldo Stern: but we do have an interesting dichtomy here, don't we?

[10:15] Myron Verne: we have this gorgeous feeling of transgression:-)

[10:15] Aldo Stern: the church and the state, even Kings like Louis XVI, they disapproved of duelling

[10:15] Aldo Stern: they make rules and laws

[10:15] Aldo Stern: they try to stop it

[10:15] Myron Verne: yes, and duels still go on and on

[10:15] Aldo Stern: buton the other hand

[10:16] Aldo Stern: we have this strong sense of honor

[10:16] Aldo Stern: if someone refuses a challenge, they are looked down upon

[10:16] EllementaryPartical: mothers of the men killed by duelling may not see it that way

[10:16] Aldo Stern: and none of you regret your dueling episdoes

[10:16] Aldo Stern: a good point Signorina

[10:17] EllementaryPartical: inclines her head

[10:17] Aldo Stern: though there are also those mothers who like a spartan lady tell the son to come back with your shield or on it

[10:17] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): At the time I had no regrets....but in retropsect I think it would have been cleverer to avoid the conflict in the first place

[10:17] Aldo Stern: there are plenty of people in european society

[10:17] Aldo Stern: mostly the affluent, yes

[10:17] Aldo Stern: who would rather die than have dishonor

[10:18] Aldo Stern: or would rather see their son or husband die than be branded a coward or an outcast

[10:18] EllementaryPartical: back to my earlier comment .. values change

[10:18] Aldo Stern: we have very mixed feelings about duelling, don't we?

[10:18] JJ Drinkwater: Which leads me to ask...what is this thing "Honour"?

[10:18] Aldo Stern: ah, a very good question!

[10:18] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): excellent question

[10:19] Aldo Stern: what do you think it is Signor JJ?

[10:19] EllementaryPartical: or we would still be behaving like neolithic people

[10:19] JJ Drinkwater ponders....

[10:19] Candace Ducatillon: Honour is situational, and often has a different meaning for different individuals.

[10:19] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): and different cultures

[10:19] Candace Ducatillon: yes

[10:20] JJ Drinkwater: It has neither form nor extension....it is intangible....and yet people will die for it

[10:20] JJ Drinkwater: It is made of how a person is regarded by certain other people

[10:20] Aldo Stern: is it something within us, or external?

[10:21] EllementaryPartical: no two people feel the same, naturally ..

[10:21] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Both perhaps?

[10:21] Aldo Stern: ah...

[10:21] Candace Ducatillon: I think both also

[10:21] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): there is personal honour and then there is social honour

[10:22] Aldo Stern: so you could be regarded as honorable by the rest of society

[10:22] Aldo Stern: but internally, feel you are not so much?

[10:22] EllementaryPartical: what happens in our lives shapes us

[10:22] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): on a personal level it has to do with honesty and personal life standards

[10:22] JJ Drinkwater: Does a hermit, who lives alone, far from all society, have honour?

[10:22] Aldo Stern: perhaps that is between him and God

[10:22] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): certainly if he lives up to his own standards

[10:22] Mercury Gandt: ....and there is a thing like revenge... I feel revenge more, than any kind of honour, which, I often think I lack...

[10:23] JJ Drinkwater: Ah, is that honor, or faith?

[10:23] Aldo Stern: perhaps both

[10:23] Candace Ducatillon: But if you succeed in getting that revenge, then do you feel it an honour to yourself?

[10:23] Aldo Stern: as to have a sense of honour requries beliving in something

[10:23] EllementaryPartical: the fairer sex have much practice at turning away from trouble

[10:24] EllementaryPartical: sometimes we would like our men to do the same

[10:24] JJ Drinkwater: There is a saying "No man is a hero in the eyes of his valet" Does a gentleman care what the rabble think of him?

[10:24] Aldo Stern: well clearly one of the factors here is that if a man, like Mercury, for example, were to not accept a duel...

[10:24] Aldo Stern: society he wants to be a part of would reject him, would it not?

[10:25] Candace Ducatillon: likely

[10:25] Myron Verne: I think not

[10:25] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Yes but would that matter to Sior Gandt if he felt he had lived up to his own standard of honour?

[10:25] Myron Verne: it's diffrent for Nobles, and Mercury is not a Noble

[10:25] Aldo Stern: let us ask him

[10:25] Candace Ducatillon: hmmm, yes

[10:25] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Sior Gandt?

[10:26] Mercury Gandt: I'm confused, what is the question exactly?

[10:26] JJ Drinkwater: Military gentlemen also stand by their honour, most fiercely

[10:26] Aldo Stern: if you yourself were satisfied that you have acted honorably

[10:26] Aldo Stern: would it matter to you if high society thought you a coward?

[10:26] EllementaryPartical: i am sorry, i have to leave now

[10:27] JJ Drinkwater: Farewell, Madmae

[10:27] Myron Verne: Good Bye, Madame

[10:27] Aldo Stern: thank you fro taking part in the discussion

[10:27] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Buona sera Signora

[10:27] Aldo Stern: arrivderci

[10:27] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): It was apleasure to meet you

[10:27] Mercury Gandt: I would feel satisfied if I was able to be an opponent - if I win, that is a triumphant feeling, like a revenge fulfilled, but if I lose, I also feel satisfaction of some kind

[10:27] EllementaryPartical: please give my best to aph, if she comes along

[10:28] Aldo Stern: and in fact, you might get some sympathy from an attractive lady or two, no?

[10:28] Myron Verne: yes, what saves the Honor is not the victory, it is the fact that you duelled at your own peril

[10:28] Aldo Stern: we shall do so Signorina Elle

[10:28] Aldo Stern: a good point Don Myron

[10:28] Mercury Gandt: Not really - I try to hide my duels - but of course I have my opponent and the seconds who see how I behave

[10:28] Aldo Stern: it is remarkable how often the loser

[10:29] Aldo Stern: as long as he is not dead

[10:29] Aldo Stern: actually ends up getting the girl

[10:29] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Yes indeed

[10:29] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim) chuckles

[10:29] Myron Verne: I should not win so often, then * smiles*

[10:29] Aldo Stern: so let us talk about where this comes from

[10:29] Aldo Stern: the heritage of our mixed feelings

[10:29] Aldo Stern: that this is a bit barbaric

[10:29] Aldo Stern: and unreasonable

[10:30] Aldo Stern: and at the same time

[10:30] Aldo Stern: there are expectations

[10:30] Aldo Stern: and people show approval to those who take part

[10:30] Aldo Stern: and disapprovbal to those who refuse

[10:30] Aldo Stern: at least in certain circles

[10:31] Aldo Stern: is this part of our heritage of the judicial duel?

[10:31] Aldo Stern: that in the days before real laws

[10:31] Aldo Stern: a dispute would be settled by arms

[10:31] Aldo Stern: and God would give victory to the one in the right?

[10:32] Myron Verne: This was two or three centuries ago

[10:32] Myron Verne: i don't think it is the reason nowadays

[10:32] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): yes better than the trials by ordeal

[10:33] Aldo Stern: but do we still feel on some level that God will give victory to the one in the right?

[10:33] Aldo Stern: or does God favor he who has practiced with the foil more?

[10:33] Myron Verne: I don't think anyone still thinks this, in 1780

[10:33] JJ Drinkwater: It is rather for a gentleman to show how highly he values his honour, which is to say his reputation...is it not?

[10:33] Myron Verne: I think soo

[10:33] Aldo Stern: so then is it perhaps not so much about who is right...

[10:34] Aldo Stern: as the fact that both willingly take part?

[10:34] Myron Verne: exactly

[10:34] Myron Verne: for Nobles, it is defending three things

[10:34] Myron Verne: 1, their glorious name and its reputation

[10:35] Myron Verne: 2 the social high postion that is linked to this name, and all the ensuing privileges

[10:35] Myron Verne: 3 one's own self esteem

[10:35] Myron Verne: that's what I think

[10:35] Myron Verne: this is their only way to remain role models for the rest of society

[10:36] Myron Verne: the common people find this is chivalrous, in some way

[10:36] Aldo Stern: so ultimately we have duels not to actually settle issues

[10:36] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): do you think the rest of soceity sees them as Role models?

[10:36] JJ Drinkwater: So it seems we should now ask...what is Reputation?

[10:36] Aldo Stern: but to support and enhance how certain people are percived

[10:36] Aldo Stern: and perceive themselves

[10:37] Myron Verne: yes

[10:37] Aldo Stern: this is very interesting...

[10:37] Myron Verne: and this is linked to social ambition too

[10:37] Aldo Stern: two of the wisest men I know of

[10:37] JJ Drinkwater: A very good point, sir

[10:37] Aldo Stern: one is the american scientist Dr. Franklin

[10:37] Aldo Stern: and the other the legal Scholar Signor Beccaria

[10:38] Aldo Stern: Dr.. Franklin has said that dueling is pointless, precisely because it settles nothing

[10:38] Aldo Stern: but what we are saying is that it is meant to really settle nothing

[10:38] Aldo Stern: it is all about reputation and perception

[10:39] Aldo Stern: and Signor JJ has asked, what is reputation...

[10:39] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): another good question

[10:39] Myron Verne: and for some, it is for fun, also...

[10:39] Aldo Stern: well yes that too

[10:39] Myron Verne: they love the trill of danger, risking their lives, they enjoy killing

[10:39] Aldo Stern: but I know people who do some strange things for fun

[10:39] Myron Verne: but they are not the majority

[10:40] Aldo Stern: no

[10:40] Mercury Gandt feels himself a bit awkward and moves on his chair

[10:40] Aldo Stern: each time we injure another...especially when we kill, we diminish ourselves that much as well

[10:40] Aldo Stern: I think most people understand that on some level

[10:40] Aldo Stern: so they only injure or kill when necessary

[10:40] Aldo Stern: is reputation necessary?

[10:41] Candace Ducatillon: Reputation is a "tag" that follows individuals around based on what people perceive from what they have seen or heard

[10:41] Candace Ducatillon: Reputation is not necessary, but certainly can play a role.

[10:41] Aldo Stern: and it affects how others interact with you, no?

[10:41] JJ Drinkwater: Certain others

[10:41] Myron Verne: yes, and for nowadays Nobles, it is absolutely necessary

[10:42] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): On a business level a good reputation is vital

[10:42] Myron Verne: what else could they be proud of?

[10:42] JJ Drinkwater: why do you say it is necessary?

[10:42] Myron Verne: The Nobles do not have the right to work, at least in France

[10:42] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Ones reputation goes before one and affects how one is recieved

[10:42] Myron Verne: they are mostly idle courtiers

[10:43] Myron Verne: no great achievements

[10:43] Myron Verne: thay have only tie family name and reputation to sustain

[10:43] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Yes its a great waste that they are left idle

[10:43] JJ Drinkwater: This makes it sound like an idle amusement for idle people

[10:44] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): well in france it probably is

[10:44] Myron Verne: this name and reputation is what brought them where they are

[10:44] Aldo Stern: in effect you are syaing they have no other asset than their name?

[10:44] Aldo Stern: and in effect the reputation that goes with it?

[10:44] Myron Verne: most of the time, yes

[10:44] Aldo Stern: and so..this is all they can do to distinguish themselves?

[10:44] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): well they consume and produce nothing

[10:44] Myron Verne: it is the highest value they can assess

[10:44] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): they do not even look after the very estates that provide their incomes

[10:45] Myron Verne: true, Signor Conte

[10:45] Aldo Stern: here is anothe irony

[10:45] Myron Verne: with a few exceptions, like me:-))

[10:45] Aldo Stern: the ones who do have some purpose

[10:45] Aldo Stern: they go into the army

[10:45] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Of course Sior Verne. you would not be here otherwise

[10:46] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): you would be at the French court with a perfumed hankerchief

[10:46] Aldo Stern: they get bested in a battle and they surrender without too much thought

[10:46] JJ Drinkwater: Ah, the honour of military men is a different kind of reputation, is it not?

[10:46] Aldo Stern: so professionally, honor is not based on their combativeness

[10:46] Myron Verne: Greetings, lady Glenrothes

[10:46] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Hello Everyone!

[10:46] Aldo Stern: but personally, if you insult the fellow who just surrendered

[10:46] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Greetings Signora

[10:46] JJ Drinkwater: Welcome, m'lady

[10:46] Aldo Stern: he will probably fight you to the death over it

[10:46] Mercury Gandt: Greetings, Lady Maria

[10:46] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Thank you

[10:47] Myron Verne bows deeply

[10:47] Aldo Stern: Donna Maria,. good to see you

[10:47] Candace Ducatillon: Ah, your timing is perfect .... we are at the meat of the matter so to speak!

[10:47] MariaLouisa Muircastle: It is nice to see you too...all of you

[10:48] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Please, no need to remain standing on my account.

[10:48] Candace Ducatillon impressed by all the attentive gentlemen

[10:48] Aldo Stern: Donna Maria please take my chair

[10:48] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Thank you Aldo, that is most kind.

[10:49] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) is Online

[10:49] Aldo Stern: so anyway, we can say that reputation in a highly valued thing

[10:49] Aldo Stern: among the noblity

[10:49] Aldo Stern: among scholars

[10:49] Aldo Stern: among businessmen

[10:49] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): well also amongst the working class

[10:49] Aldo Stern: it affects how other treat you

[10:49] Aldo Stern: and if they are willing to interact with you or not

[10:49] Mercury Gandt: and among those who sit by a cards table...

[10:50] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): we would not go to a sword smith with a bad reputation for example

[10:50] Aldo Stern: but is dueling to protect one's reputation essential?

[10:50] Aldo Stern: or will it become less important?

[10:50] Myron Verne: i think a revealing thing happened recently

[10:50] Aldo Stern: oh?

[10:50] JJ Drinkwater: I think there will always be those who are touchy about their reputation

[10:50] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Yes Sior?

[10:50] Myron Verne: the Encycopedia of Diuderot and D'alembert

[10:51] Myron Verne: they have a special part on fencing

[10:51] Myron Verne: you all have seen the images

[10:51] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Yes indeed

[10:52] Myron Verne: it's about duels seen as a friendly and sporting practice

[10:52] Myron Verne: a physical exercise for fun

[10:52] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Isn't it illegal otherwise now?

[10:52] Myron Verne: and they, the philosophers, ...

[10:52] JJ Drinkwater: ( )

[10:52] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): But I fear that it will become fashionable to use pistols rather than the Foil

[10:52] Myron Verne: put the stress on this , rather than on the tradition of duels of honor, that they despise

[10:53] Myron Verne: I think this indicates the future trend about these matters

[10:53] JJ Drinkwater: Pistols will "level the ground" will they not?

[10:53] Aldo Stern: yes excatly

[10:53] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): and tend to be more permanent in their damage

[10:54] Aldo Stern: well here is a possiblity....as the middle class grows

[10:54] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): while before it was a combat...a competition of skill...now its become more serious

[10:54] Aldo Stern: their sons will want to demonstrate some of the same values as the nobility

[10:54] Aldo Stern: like duelling

[10:54] Myron Verne: you cannot have a friendly duel with pistols, hahahaha

[10:54] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Too true Myron

[10:54] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): exactly

[10:54] Aldo Stern: but not having thad the same level of instruction

[10:54] Aldo Stern: they do not do well with the sword

[10:55] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Fencing is an art....firing a pistol, not so much

[10:55] Aldo Stern: so the pistol allows them to protect their name and reputationwithout having the skill?

[10:55] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): They don't do much better with pistols either

[10:55] Myron Verne: I agree with lady Maria

[10:55] Aldo Stern: yes, but it does add a random element as well

[10:55] Aldo Stern: bad powder, a msifire

[10:55] JJ Drinkwater: You see a burgeoning of murder, Professore?

[10:55] Aldo Stern: then we are back to God having a hand in the outcome

[10:56] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): where as before the contest was judged on skill and sportsmanship -- now it has become more seriously about killing the other party

[10:56] Aldo Stern: perhaps, unless we find a way of convincing young men there are better ways of building and protecting one's reputation

[10:56] Myron Verne: clever remark, Conte

[10:56] Mercury Gandt: I couldn't imagine a world when no one has duels.... Imagine that you are insulted... humiliated... your face blushes and burns.... you feel uncomfortable for days and days... your soul is poisoned... and you can't challenge the other one because there is no such thing as a duel... I think it will be most unhealthy

[10:57] JJ Drinkwater: Your thoughts will turn instead to revenge, perhaps...

[10:57] Aldo Stern: *aside* or having the fellow poisoned

[10:57] Myron Verne: If you are stronger mentally than the insulting party, you will find the right answer, mercury

[10:57] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): I imagine that in the outre young hotheads will find other ways of showing off

[10:57] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): they will race, perhaps?

[10:58] JJ Drinkwater: Lady Sere, good day to you

[10:58] Myron Verne: Bongiorno Signora!

[10:58] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Buon giorno everyone.

[10:58] Aldo Stern: or..I am curious Signor JJ, when you had your duel you said it was with strange weapons?

[10:58] Aldo Stern: may i ask what you chose to use?

[10:58] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Buona sera Signora

[10:58] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Gentemen, please do sit down.

[10:58] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Hello Sere

[10:58] Aldo Stern: buona sera Signorina Sere

[10:59] JJ Drinkwater: It was duel of compliments..a contest of wit and courtesy

[10:59] Myron Verne: how unusual!

[10:59] Candace Ducatillon: Greetings Signorina Sere

[10:59] Myron Verne: and how clever!

[10:59] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): ahhh now that sounds very interesting

[10:59] Aldo Stern: what a splendid idea

[10:59] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Goodness Sir JJ, you must have excelled at that duel.

[10:59] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): and how was this contest judged?

[10:59] Mercury Gandt: Please have my seat, Lady Sere

[10:59] Mercury Gandt: I prefer pacing

[11:00] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): a contest of education and wit

[11:00] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): You're more than kind, Mr. Gandt. But I have just drawn a chair over.

[11:00] JJ Drinkwater: I am pleased to say I was the victor

[11:00] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Congratulations Sior

[11:00] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): but how was this competion judged?

[11:00] Myron Verne: the winner was decided when the other part was short on compliments?

[11:01] JJ Drinkwater: Ah! It was the time of year when money is raised for medical research...you know whereof I speak?So the audience voted with their wallets

[11:01] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): a good way to show ones opinion

[11:01] Aldo Stern: that is fascinating, a contest of wits..sadly it will never catch on among the nobility, as for so many of them, they would enter the fray only half-armed

[11:01] Myron Verne: ahahahahaha

[11:02] JJ Drinkwater: You are pleased to be droll, Professore...but there is something to what you say

[11:02] Myron Verne: May I tell you about the most clever pistol duel I heard about?

[11:02] JJ Drinkwater: Pray do!

[11:02] Aldo Stern: yes of course Don Myron

[11:03] Myron Verne: It was Commander Hornblower"s duel, an English officer in the Navy

[11:03] Myron Verne: he had been challenged to duel by a man, a pistol champion

[11:04] Myron Verne: he had the choice of the rules of the duel

[11:04] Myron Verne: so knowing he was far less good at pistol shooting

[11:04] Myron Verne: he chose to duel with the man at a distance of two yards

[11:05] Myron Verne: with only one bullet loaded in the two guns

[11:05] Aldo Stern: good lord!

[11:05] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Great courage

[11:05] Myron Verne: no one knew which one had the bullet in it

[11:05] Myron Verne: a very mathematical idea, to make the levels more even!

[11:06] Aldo Stern: yes, essentially 50/50

[11:06] Myron Verne: so the duel began... and his opponent fainted!

[11:06] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Do I dare ask the outcome of that duel?

[11:06] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Is that a sort of Russian Roulette?

[11:06] Myron Verne: Hornblower had won

[11:06] MariaLouisa Muircastle: LOL

[11:06] Myron Verne: yes, Maria

[11:06] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Hahaha!

[11:06] Aldo Stern: and without killing his opponet?

[11:06] JJ Drinkwater: A most clever concept

[11:07] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): I think a duel of Wits is a better course of action, and less likely to decimate our young men

[11:07] Mercury Gandt: Buon giorno, Baronessa

[11:07] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta): My apologies for being late

[11:07] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) curtsies respectfully

[11:07] Myron Verne: Greetings, Signora

[11:08] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Buon giorno, Lady Blitzen

[11:08] Aldo Stern: but back to Donna Maria's point that dueling is in fact illegal in many nations

[11:08] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta): Good afternoon

[11:08] Aldo Stern: and certainly killing another person is illegal

[11:08] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): May I pull a chair around for you?

[11:08] Aldo Stern: although the man who does so will often be pardoned

[11:08] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Hello

[11:08] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Greetings Signora

[11:09] Aldo Stern: My friend Signor Beccaria makes the point that someone who is willing to die in a duel, for whom honor and reputation is more important than life itself...

[11:09] Aldo Stern: threatening them with being hung or put in prison isn't much of a deterrent

[11:09] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Very true

[11:10] Aldo Stern: so if we did want to actualy discourage dueling, how could we do it?

[11:10] Myron Verne: Jail would be a much more efficient way

[11:10] JJ Drinkwater says drily "Such folk will always be among us"

[11:10] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Don't take the challenge?

[11:10] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): and those that insist on a duel will find somewhere private

[11:10] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Jail or a hefty fine

[11:10] JJ Drinkwater: Confiscation of their estates would do it...

[11:10] Aldo Stern: hmmm

[11:10] Myron Verne: what is the honor of ending up in jail?

[11:11] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Indeed

[11:11] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): or having to explain to ones parents why one has to pay a large fine

[11:11] Aldo Stern: all interesting ideas

[11:11] MariaLouisa Muircastle: A fine won't hurt enough, if the person is very rich

[11:11] Aldo Stern: but you know it crosses my mind...

[11:11] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Some could turn a jail sentwence into an honourable martyrdom

[11:11] Aldo Stern: perhaps the vulnerable spot here is the reputation...the position in society

[11:11] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): a fine....less easy

1:12] JJ Drinkwater: Make them an outlaw then, strip them of their titles...

[11:12] Aldo Stern: Aha! you know in certain german states,they don't want the nobles to engage in business

[11:12] Aldo Stern: and if you do, your title is taken away

[11:12] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): That would have more of an effect then death or jail

[11:12] Aldo Stern: it is proving very effective

[11:12] Aldo Stern: perhaps if as Signor JJ suggested, a deullist had his title taken away?

[11:12] MariaLouisa Muircastle: I think that is smart indeed

[11:12] Mercury Gandt: Greetings, dear Summer

[11:13] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Yes let the hothead son explain this to his parents

[11:13] Summer Serendipity: Bongiourno

[11:13] Aldo Stern: of course that will not deter those who are untitled

[11:13] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): there is nothing honourable in losing your title

[11:13] Summer Serendipity: dear Mercury

[11:13] Myron Verne: Oh Summer!

[11:13] Myron Verne: Bongiorno, Dear

[11:13] Summer Serendipity: Hello Myron

[11:13] Summer Serendipity: Candace

[11:13] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Buona sera Signora

[11:14] Candace Ducatillon: Greetings dear friend !

[11:14] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim) bows to Sumer

[11:14] Aldo Stern: it is good to see you Signorina Summer

[11:14] Summer Serendipity: Hello Maria ... Sere .. Aldo

[11:14] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless) nods to Summer.

[11:14] Summer Serendipity: thank you please excuse my interruption

[11:14] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Hello

[11:15] Summer Serendipity: so good to see you all again

[11:15] JJ Drinkwater: Wre were discussing punishment for duelists

[11:15] Myron Verne: we mean those who kill their opponents, not the En garde fencers! ahahaha

[11:16] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) smiles - and thinks of her en garde matches

[11:16] Aldo Stern: yes, there is a great difference between the sport of fencing and the act of dueling

[11:16] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Fencing in itself is an honourable sport

[11:17] Aldo Stern: as Don Myron will tell you practice in fencing actually builds discipline, self control

[11:17] Aldo Stern: but you look at duels and how they often play out without self control at work

[11:17] Aldo Stern: the blood is hot, the fellows hack at each other like mad tartars

[11:17] Myron Verne: yes, more of a catfight...

[11:18] Myron Verne: wild cats:-)

[11:18] Mercury Gandt: Merci beaucoup

[11:18] Aldo Stern: it would better to give them big clubs and let them bash at each other

[11:18] JJ Drinkwater: Better than clubs..give each a live goose...

[11:18] MariaLouisa Muircastle: LOL

[11:18] Candace Ducatillon: ((*nerf bats)

[11:19] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): There are other ways to do combat

[11:19] MariaLouisa Muircastle: No tickling with a feather, just throw the whole bird at them.

[11:19] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Boxing for example

[11:19] Aldo Stern: ah yes

[11:19] MariaLouisa Muircastle: ((LOL...Candace))

[11:19] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta): ((Laughs))

[11:19] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Bird throwing is an ancient and honourable art

[11:19] JJ Drinkwater grins

[11:20] Myron Verne: never tried this one, yet... interesting idea

[11:20] Candace Ducatillon: Bird Throwing ??

[11:20] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim) smiles

[11:20] MariaLouisa Muircastle: *snickers

[11:20] Aldo Stern: having been around geese a good bit in my childhood

[11:20] Aldo Stern: I can say that this is an interesting plan

[11:20] Aldo Stern: but unnecessarily cruel

[11:20] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): you will be aware of how vicious they can be

[11:21] Aldo Stern: yes, it is cruel not to the geese, which are after all, insufferable monsters

[11:21] Aldo Stern: but to the duelists

[11:21] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): exactly

[11:21] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): hahaha

[11:21] Myron Verne smiles

[11:21] JJ Drinkwater: It would be all the more likely to discourage them, then

[11:21] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): geese are well able to defend themselves

[11:21] Aldo Stern: a good point signor JJ

[11:21] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): and more likely than not to start the fight

[11:21] Aldo Stern: by the way, I had shared around the 26 rules of the Clonmel Code Duello

[11:22] Aldo Stern: did any of you find anything particularly of interest in those?

[11:22] JJ Drinkwater: I was quite lost halfway through the rules

[11:22] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta): There were rules of rules

[11:22] Aldo Stern: they are quite elaborate aren't they?

[11:23] MariaLouisa Muircastle: I wonder how often they were truly followed to the letter.

[11:23] Candace Ducatillon: rules of rules ... (thinks of Tristram Shandy ... thoughts all over the place))

[11:23] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): I used to be more familiar with them

[11:23] Don Alejandro de Padilla (colosodorado88): greetings

[11:23] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): but have forgotten

[11:24] Mercury Gandt: Good day, Don Alejandro

[11:24] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Greetings Signore

[11:24] Myron Verne: Greetings, Don Alejandro

[11:24] Aldo Stern: hola Don Alejandro please join us

[11:24] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Hello Don Alejandro

[11:25] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Don Alejandro, you are welcome to join the discussion. Please take one of the empty chairs.

[11:25] Aldo Stern: but at any rate we were speaking of the rules of duelling that were devleoped by the irish gentlemen at the Clonmel assizes in 1777

[11:25] Aldo Stern: and as Signor JJ points out

[11:25] Aldo Stern: they are rather complex

[11:26] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): which exlains why I forgot them

[11:26] Aldo Stern: I do suspect a great deal of drinking was invovled in the creative process

[11:26] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) laughs

[11:26] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): maybe one needs to drink to understand

[11:26] Candace Ducatillon: lol

[11:26] Myron Verne: coffee won't do

[11:27] Aldo Stern: no it would be the distilled spirits that the irish habitually drink

[11:27] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): ahh no...I suspect it must be wiskey

[11:27] Myron Verne: I think the rules were different according to countries

[11:27] Myron Verne: and the opponents had the liberty to agree on modifications

[11:27] Aldo Stern: yes, but this irish Code Duello became the basis for the rules in other countries with some variatons of course

[11:28] Aldo Stern: but why go to the effort of making such rules when what is likely to happenis that the blood runs hot

[11:28] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Ah, leave it to the Irish

[11:28] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): a hot blooded passionate people

[11:28] Aldo Stern: the fighters get to hacking and fight on, even with broken blades

[11:29] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): so I have heard

[11:29] JJ Drinkwater: The rules put a veneer of civilization on the thing, I suppose

[11:29] Aldo Stern: why try to put the veneer of civilization on what is a brutal act

[11:30] JJ Drinkwater: For the vanity of the class which duels, perhaps?

[11:31] Aldo Stern: perhaps...or is it accepting the fact that even despite laws against it

[11:31] Aldo Stern: that we can't stop fellows from dueling

[11:31] Aldo Stern: so do we try to mitigate it

[11:31] Aldo Stern: we accept the reality and try to keep it under control

[11:31] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): there will always be hotheaded young men looking for an excuse to fight and show off

[11:32] Aldo Stern: a lot of the rules seem to be desgined to try to prevent unncessary deaths

[11:32] JJ Drinkwater: A deep question, Professore

[11:32] Myron Verne: Well, I am so sorry I have to leave, Ladies and Gentlemen... I hope you will have excused the "rough on the edge" English of a French Baron:-)

[11:32] Myron Verne: It was very enlightening, and a very pleasant company

[11:32] Summer Serendipity: awww Myron, so sorry to see you leave

[11:32] JJ Drinkwater: Farewell, Sir

[11:32] Candace Ducatillon: ((just read back ... broken blades ... gringes))

[11:33] Aldo Stern: Don Myron it was good to have you with us

[11:33] Myron Verne: I hope to see you soon on the Pistes of En Garde!

[11:33] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): It was a pleasure to meet you Sior Verne

[11:33] MariaLouisa Muircastle: It has been good to see you again, Myron...as always

[11:33] Aldo Stern: next week, yes?

[11:33] Myron Verne: Farewell!

[11:33] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): I hope to see you on the Pistes

[11:33] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Au revoir

[11:33] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Buona Sera

[11:34] sevilla Abbot: oh good evenings

[11:34] Mercury Gandt: Your Highness, welcome

[11:34] sevilla Abbot: i am sorry if i am late

[11:34] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Buona Sera magesta

[11:34] Aldo Stern: Principessa!

[11:34] Aldo Stern: welcome

[11:34] Don Alejandro de Padilla (colosodorado88): greetings

[11:34] sevilla Abbot: sorry I am coming late

[11:35] sevilla Abbot: Lady goodnight Glenrothes

[11:35] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) nods to the later arrivals and smiles

[11:35] Aldo Stern: that is quite alright , Highness

[11:35] sevilla Abbot: Professore?

[11:35] Aldo Stern: we are pleased to have you join us

[11:35] Aldo Stern: we are talking about dueling

[11:35] sevilla Abbot: oh thanks you always so kind

[11:35] sevilla Abbot: oh yes i read the note

[11:35] Candace Ducatillon: Greetings

[11:35] Aldo Stern: may I ask do you ever have duels in Amalfi, or has your good husband the Principe outlawed it?

[11:35] sevilla Abbot: please take a seat

[11:35] Summer Serendipity: Buenos Noches Princess

[11:36] sevilla Abbot: oh we never have the dueling

[11:36] sevilla Abbot: with your permission Lady Ancasta

[11:37] Aldo Stern: and again, even though Don Myron has left I will again point out on his behalf as a fencing master,that when we say dueling

[11:37] Aldo Stern: we do not mean friendly fencing for sport and exercise

[11:37] Aldo Stern: we mean a serious challenge in which a man

[11:38] Aldo Stern: or even now and then a lady

[11:38] Aldo Stern: fights another to protect honor and reputation

[11:38] Aldo Stern: possibly to the death

[11:39] Aldo Stern: may I ask, since we now have so many ladies here

[11:39] Aldo Stern: have any of you ever fought a duel?

[11:39] Aldo Stern: and if not..would you as a lady ever consder doing so?

[11:39] Candace Ducatillon: only in my mind

[11:39] Aldo Stern: ha! Donna Candace

[11:40] Aldo Stern: it would be impolite for us to ask about the circumstances

[11:40] Aldo Stern: but seriously, I know some of you ladies fence...

[11:40] Aldo Stern: would you consider a serious duel for honor?

[11:41] Candace Ducatillon: yes, I think it possible

[11:41] MariaLouisa Muircastle: I fence but would never duel. I would hope my ego is not so large as to be easily offended.

[11:41] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta): I would, if someone offended me that much

[11:42] MariaLouisa Muircastle: I still would not. I value you life too highly.

[11:42] Aldo Stern: that is interesting

[11:42] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Mainly because I've had to fight so much in the past for it.

[11:42] Aldo Stern: *nods*

[11:42] Candace Ducatillon: Now that Maria has said that ... I realize I could not duel to the death.

[11:43] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta): No, it would be a duel for 'first blood'

[11:43] Candace Ducatillon: ... just to make a "point"

[11:43] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta): Honour would be satisfied

[11:43] sevilla Abbot: ah

[11:44] Aldo Stern: this all very interesting

[11:44] Aldo Stern: may I then ask the question of the gentlemen present...

[11:44] Aldo Stern: how would you regard a lady who was willing to fight a duel?

[11:45] Aldo Stern: even if only to "first blood"

[11:45] JJ Drinkwater: With some trepidation!

[11:45] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) hides her grin behind her fan

[11:45] Candace Ducatillon liking this question

[11:45] JJ Drinkwater: Well, are the ladies not sensitive as to their honour?

[11:46] JJ Drinkwater: As much so as the gentlemen?

[11:46] MariaLouisa Muircastle: That is what the gentlemen are for...LOL

[11:46] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): I would admire her, even though I suspect society would frown

[11:46] MariaLouisa Muircastle whispers: j/k

[11:46] Aldo Stern: well Donna maria, you said so in jest

[11:46] Aldo Stern: but is that not actualy true for many women?

[11:47] Aldo Stern: I can think of plenty of court ladies who if offended would be more than happy to have some fellow risk getting punctured on her behalf

[11:47] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Yes, but again...is there really any honor in it? Wounded pride is more the case...

[11:47] Don Alejandro de Padilla (colosodorado88): please excuse me , i must leave

[11:47] Candace Ducatillon: Farewell Sir

[11:47] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Ciao

[11:47] Mercury Gandt: Goodbye, Don Alejandro

[11:47] Aldo Stern: arrividerci Don Alejandro

[11:47} Aldo Stern: and what if the lady were to challenge a man? what would you think?

[11:47] Mercury Gandt: well if I were the man, after a hesitation, I would accept her challenge - perhaps because of respecting her dignity

[11:47] JJ Drinkwater: Ah, but would a gentleman not be bound by courtesy to let a lady win?

[11:47] Aldo Stern: I must say I have a certain level of admiration for a lady who would take it into her own hands to protect her own reputation and honorand not leave the danger to some surrogate

[11:48] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): and as fathers, brothers and husbands are we not expected to be prepared to find for the reputation of our ladies?

[11:48] Aldo Stern: yes of course

[11:48] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Yes, but not all women have such family...so we must grant that

[11:48] Candace Ducatillon: "let a lady win" ... such a dilemma ?

[11:48] Aldo Stern: but still that does not keep me from admiring the lady who takes on her own role in that

[11:49] Aldo Stern: if they have the ability and skill..say as your Daughter the Contessa does

[11:49] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): I am proud of my daughter's skills in fencing but greatly hope she would not get herself involved in a duel

[11:49] Candace Ducatillon: Yes, with the ability , skill, and desire ... it would be most admirable to either gender I would think.

[11:50] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Again, I don't see much that is admirable in dueling

[11:50] Candace Ducatillon: so very thought provoking this all is.

[11:50] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Fighting simply because your pride or "honor" is wounded in some way...it's silly

[11:51] Mercury Gandt: You choose enduring it, instead, Mylady?

[11:51] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): indeed

[11:51] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Yes...I've seen enough bloodshed in my life, Monsieur

[11:51] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): honour on its own has little meaning unless it represents certain standards of behaviour

[11:51] Candace Ducatillon: pride can often be deadly in and of itself

[11:51] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Exactly, Conte

[11:51] Aldo Stern: this is very true

[11:51] Candace Ducatillon: Honour is in another category

[11:51] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Indeed CAndace

[11:52] Candace Ducatillon: ... somehow

[11:52] Aldo Stern: Signor JJ mentioned vanity as a motivation for dueling at one point

[11:52] Aldo Stern: it is after all, a deadly sin

[11:52] Aldo Stern: in this case, literally so

[11:52] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) nods

[11:52] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Vanity...that is the word I was looking for!

[11:52] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): and I would hope that one would be able to either avoid such quarells or as the gentleman said before use ones wits rather than tne foil

[11:52] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): and there is a great difference between honour and Vanity

[11:52] MariaLouisa Muircastle: A duel of wits is very entertaining

[11:52] Mercury Gandt: And those poor souls who have no wits?

[11:53] MariaLouisa Muircastle: But often the two are tied closely together Conte

[11:53] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): they should avoid fencing at all cost

[11:53] Summer Serendipity: have no sword lol

[11:53] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim) smiles at the gentleman

[11:53] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): but those who want to fight will find a way

[11:53] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): even if its just using their fists

[11:54] MariaLouisa Muircastle: of course

[11:54] Aldo Stern: ah, you know Signorina Summer, that is one idea that has been put forth... that if gentlmen did not all wear swords

[11:54] Aldo Stern: they would not be so readily inclined to fight with them

[11:54] Summer Serendipity: yes

[11:55] Candace Ducatillon: they serve a decorative purpose also ...

[11:55] Aldo Stern: but that may be a straw man...for after all it is not the sword that kills a man

[11:55] Aldo Stern: it is the man wielding the sword

[11:55] Aldo Stern: free will and all that

[11:55] Summer Serendipity: and where there is a will there is a way ...

[11:55] Summer Serendipity: so any weapon will serve its purpose

[11:55] Candace Ducatillon: yet, men seem to be drawn to "battle"

[11:56] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Young men

[11:56] Summer Serendipity: the commaraderie of it all

[11:56] Summer Serendipity: lol

[11:56] Candace Ducatillon: women are more drawn to "discuss"

[11:56] JJ Drinkwater: The ladies have their chosen weapons, I am sure

[11:56] Aldo Stern: ah yes, I have met some women in this world who have tongues sharper than any epee

[11:57] MariaLouisa Muircastle: True, Candace, unless a knife or sword or other weapon is held directly at your person

[11:57] Candace Ducatillon: absolutely Maria

[11:57] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Then we will fight for our lives

[11:57] Candace Ducatillon: yes

[11:57] Candace Ducatillon: or children

[11:57] MariaLouisa Muircastle: yes

[11:57] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) nods

[11:58] Aldo Stern: well this has been a truly interesting discussion

[11:58] JJ Drinkwater: It would be a vastly different world if ladies went armed, we may be sure...the mind boggles to think of it

[11:58] Summer Serendipity: lol

[11:58] Aldo Stern: does anyone have any further points (no pun intended) they wish to make?

[11:58] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): sharper than an Epeee and more deadly

[11:58] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Ah, but we are often armed Sir...more than you know

[11:58] MariaLouisa Muircastle: LOL...Aldo

[11:58] Mercury Gandt: Just remember this warning:

[11:59] Mercury Gandt: There will be much more suffering more in a world without duels

[11:59] JJ Drinkwater bows to Lady Glenrothes

[11:59] Candace Ducatillon: Hmmm, Mercury

[11:59] Aldo Stern: an interesting idea Signor Gandt

[12:00] Aldo Stern: do you wish to elaborate?

[12:00] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): without the healthy outlet of a duel?

[12:00] Mercury Gandt: If I feel hurt, a duel is a short, effective way to close the case, and in the end, maybe I shake hands with my opponent

[12:00] Mercury Gandt: On the other hands, if no duels at all...

[12:01] Mercury Gandt: I will suffer (yes, my vanity),

[12:01] Mercury Gandt: and I think about him/her as an enemy - forever perhaps?

[12:01] Mercury Gandt: Without this simple solution

[12:01] Candace Ducatillon: Do you mean as if one keeps their anger inside , without finding an appropriate outlet?

[12:01] Mercury Gandt: Yes exactly

[12:02] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta): It is also a mark of a gentleman of good breeding - a fight in the bar is so undignified, a duel much more interesting

[12:02] Candace Ducatillon: ty

[12:02] Summer Serendipity: I fear I must take my leave now.... this has been so very pleasant sitting with you all again....

[12:02] Aldo Stern: it has been very good to have you with us

[12:02] Candace Ducatillon: ... and pleasant to have you among us.

[12:02] Aldo Stern: thank you for coming Signorina

[12:02] Summer Serendipity: thank you so much for the stimulating conversation and discussion

[12:02] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Take care Summer

[12:02] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Arriverderci Signora

[12:03] Summer Serendipity: have a lovely day to all of you...

[12:03] Mercury Gandt: See you Summer

[12:03] Summer Serendipity: bye

[12:03] JJ Drinkwater: Farewell, Madame

[12:03] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) nods - Good Day

[12:03] Summer Serendipity is Offline

[12:03] Aldo Stern: so back to Signor Gandt's point

[12:03] Aldo Stern: that this is a useful outlet for emotions and bad blood

[12:04] Aldo Stern: then we are back to the idea that rules like the code duello are important to keep it from becoming mere butchery?

[12:04] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): It would seem a useful outlet only if one of the parties are not seriously wounded.

[12:04] Candace Ducatillon: *cringes at the word butchery

[12:05] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Then really, it would be simply sparing

[12:05] JJ Drinkwater: With all repect to Mr Gandt...what of the loss of life?

[12:05] MariaLouisa Muircastle: which to me is more acceptable

[12:06] Mercury Gandt: I don't think about loss of life intentionally - yes, accidents may happen, unfortunately

[12:06] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Yes are there not other, less harmful forms of outlets for one's anger?

[12:07] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Truly there must be

[12:07] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Geese throwing sounded good

[12:07] MariaLouisa Muircastle: LOL

[12:07] Candace Ducatillon: not for the geese though !

[12:07] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Good luck getting a hold of one

[12:07] Candace Ducatillon: lol

[12:07] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Ohh the geese give as good as they get

[12:08] MariaLouisa Muircastle: to throw it in the first place

[12:08] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): exactly

[12:08] MariaLouisa Muircastle:

[12:08] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) chuckles

[12:08] Aldo Stern: well if you grab one, you've already demonstrated your degree of bravery

[12:08] Candace Ducatillon: yes indeed!

[12:08] Aldo Stern: and perhaps lack of common sense[12:08] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Sior gandt I can imagine a future where duelling as we understand it will be a thing of the past

[12:09] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): but surelly there will be other competitions available to pitch one man against another

[12:09] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): I think sports will take over

[12:09] Mercury Gandt: And what would you do with me, Signore Conte, in the future, if I insulted you by a remark?

[12:09] MariaLouisa Muircastle: So, Monsieur Gandt, you feel no remorse at taking another's life?

[12:09] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Well we could play tennis

[12:10] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): we could box?

[12:10] Mercury Gandt: I wouldn't take another"s life intentionally - I just want to see his blood, a small sample of it, that's all

[12:10] MariaLouisa Muircastle: And this gives you satisfaction?

[12:10] Mercury Gandt is looking right into Lady Glenrothes' eyes deeply: Yes, that would give me satisfaction

[12:10] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): if you box and hit your opponent right you will draw blood

[12:11] Aldo Stern: well that's the good thing about dueling with the small sword..

[12:11] Aldo Stern: you can be pierced mutliple times, and as long as a major artery or organ isn't hit, you can function quite well for a while and probbly recover nicely, but there's still plenty of blood spilled

[12:11] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): you should try it...most satisfying

[12:12] MariaLouisa Muircastle hand aches at the memory of breaking a few noses in the past

[12:12] JJ Drinkwater makes a note not to get on Lady Glenrothes' wrong side

[12:12] Aldo Stern: very well

[12:12] Aldo Stern: signore e signori

[12:12] Aldo Stern: thank you , I myself am going to go to the pistes

[12:12] MariaLouisa Muircastle: *Gives Mercury a sad smile in return

[12:13] Mercury Gandt: ((lol, I thought you mean my nose to break...))

[12:13] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Thank you for leading such a stimulating discussion Professore.

[12:13] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) thinks about her blades needing another airing

[12:13] Aldo Stern: this has been an excellent conversation

[12:13] Aldo Stern: many different viewpoints and ideas

[12:13] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): It has indeed

[12:13] MariaLouisa Muircastle: I've thoroughly enjoyed it

[12:13] JJ Drinkwater: Indeed, thank you, Professore

[12:13] Mercury Gandt: Thank you very much, Professore, for the notecards, too

[12:13] Aldo Stern: I have enjoyed it immensely and I hope all of you have as well

[12:13] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Thank you all

[12:14] Aldo Stern: milie grazie

[12:14] MariaLouisa Muircastle: I hope you all have a wonderful afternoon/evening

[12:14] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta): thank you all

the fencing activities have got me looking for more information and I found this wonderful bit:

I especially love the last line about a man who wears a sword without knowing how to use it is as ridiculous as a man who has books but can't read

Yes...an interesting day. Not the least of which was watching the two masters at work. The Conte di Loredan and Signor Verne. They are very closely matched, although the one is a good bit taller, with a bit more reach. When I fence with Signor Verne, I always feel as though I am thoroughly outclassed, but it is an honor and a pleasure to cross blades with someone so knowledgeable and such a gentleman.

"Miguel?"

The Spanish blacksmith looked up at the sound of his name. He smiled when he saw a tall figure in a black coat and breeches, and gold-colored waistcoat. "Si, Don Aldo. How may I be of help to you?"

The master metalsmith laid down his hammer and walked towards the door of the forge. His padrone, the scholar from Torino, was standing just outside. Miguel Herrero usually did not like to be interrupted in the middle of a job, but he was almost always glad to see the padrone. He had a great deal of respect for Don Aldo, even though he was an Italian. Miguel knew things about Don Aldo that no one else in Melioria did, and some of those things had convinced the blacksmith from Toledo that this quiet professor had the heart of a Spaniard. Not the least of these considerations was that it was through the efforts of Don Aldo that he, Migeuel Herrero, had been delivered from slavery among the Barbary corsairs of Northern Africa. And as if that were not enough, the Professore had made arrangements for the spanish blacksmith to come to this pretty little island to run a forge, to teach apprentices, and to help build its economy as something more than yet another tourist trap on the Grand Tour.

The scholar glanced at what Miguel and his apprentice had been working on.

"Pike heads?"

"Si, Don Aldo. Boarding pikes...for that English privateer that came into the harbor the other day...the one that had letters for the Baronessa. We were talking...and I told them a bit of my story, of the North African pirates and of how they seem to be acting up lately..."

"Ah...I see. And your words made them decide they needed to arm themselves more adequately?"

"Si," the blacksmith replied with a little smile, and then shrugged. "I merely told them a bit about the tactics the african pirates employ..."

Don Aldo nodded. "Very good. Do you need more iron stock?"

"No, we have sufficient. Now then, Professore, what brings you to the forge today?"

"We have finally freed our friend from his constraining circumstances. The operation was a success and he is now ready for transport."

"Ah, that is good news. It went well? He is undamaged?"

"He seems to be. But if you are free, I would like for you to take a look at him. Make sure he is strong enough for the trip, that his joints and weak points are not giving way."

"Of course, Don Aldo, with pleasure. As long as they supported him as I suggested, at the key places, he should be fine. I can go with you right now if you wish."

"If you can go now, that would be splendid. But I cannot accompany you...I must look after some dispatches that are going out with the Santa Beatrice . And she departs very soon."

"I shall attend to the matter at once," replied the blacksmith, inclining his head in a small but heartfelt gesture of respect.

"Milie grazie," answered the scholar, as he turned and headed to the crowded harbor.

Miguel Herrero gave instructions for his apprentice to continue the simpler aspects of the pike head project until he returned. This should not take long, he thought, as went up the ramp by the piazza, under the arches by the little cascade, and through the iron gates to the grand stairway. He went past the newly renovated villa, through the orange grove, and down to the beach, where a huge tripod of stout logs had been erected. Suspended under this tripod, braced in a cradle of sturdy timbers and ropes, was their "friend."

A small group was gathered around, including the German baronessa and La Donna Ariella. Miguel bowed his head to the important ladies and looked around for Padre Cuthbert, the English clergyman and antiquairan who had been overseeing the work here for several months now. Not seeing him, the blacksmith turned to the important ladies.

"Donna Ariella, Baronessa, is Padre Cuthbert here? Don Aldo wished for me to take a look at our friend and see if he is doing well."

The German lady took her ever-present clay pipe out of her mouth and pointed with the stem back up towards the villa.

"Up to the big house he has gone. He is checking on the cart they are building to move the piece. Now that it is out of the ground, they will slide the cart underneath and then take it to the Academy. Please, look at it to see with your knowledge of metal if it is supported properly. Not bending or making the fractures, we hope?"

MIguel nodded and climbed over the dirt piles by the tripod. He placed his hand gently on the mottled green-brown flanks of the great beast. The ancient bronze felt warm from the sun that had been beating down on the lion since he had finally been freed from the sand and earth that had hidden him for so long.

At first glance the statue looked remarkably good. There had only been a few nicks made in his mane and one ear when he was discovored. Someone had seen a bit of green metal protruding from sand, and as soon as it was apparent that they had found an ancient object of some value -- and astonishing size -- the Padre had been brought to see it and he had immediately set about making sure that it would be removed as carefully as possible, without any undue haste, in order to avoid denting and gouging the metal.

It appeared that the effort had been successful.

"He looks good, don't you think?" asked Donna Ariella, with just a hint of concern in her voice.

The master metalsmith stood back for a moment and then he crouched, looking for signs of stress in the metal, and checking the cradle's placement.

It did, in fact, look pretty good.

"Si, Donna Ariella," Miguel answered, "our friend is quite ready to travel."

La Donna Ariella, took her leave to return to the villa and attend to some business of the Council of Regents. Miguel lit a cigar and continued his inspection of the lion and its cradle, while the Baronessa described the arrangements that had been made at the academy to use the hoist in the back, behind the sliding wall panels, to get the statue up to the second floor. Miguel assured her that he thought the plan was sound, and that the lion should be be in good shape on arrival at the new cabinet of curiosities, God willing. Eventually their discussion died away, and all present simply gazed at the metal beast, lost in their own reflections. Miguel's thoughts turned to the men who long ago had fashioned the great lion. He wondered if they had felt the same sense of satisfaction he got from shaping a piece of metal into something elegant or useful. When they finished it, had they looked at what they had created and felt some deep, quietly humbling pleasure for having made such a powerful artifact?

Then he noticed something by his feet. He reached down and brushed away some gravel and sand, revealing a very old coin. He picked it up and turned it over in his fingers. The stern face of someone, probably an emperor or king, looked up at him from the grubby metal.

He looked at the inscription. He was pretty sure it said something like "Constantius"

"Well, Senor Constantius" he mused, "I'll bet even if you were a great emperor with mighty legions, and a big palace, you couldn't have ever created anything as wonderful as our friend here. You may have ruled an empire. but you couldn't make beautiful stuff like the lion of Melioria. No, not in a thousand years."

Migeul Herrero, the blacksmith from Toledo and former slave of the Barbary corsairs stood up and laughed.

"Oh well, we can't all be perfect."

He handed the coin to the Baronessa. It could go into the new cabinet of curiosities as well....something for scholars like Don Aldo to ponder and philosophize about. Then he headed back up over the steep hill to see how those boarding pike heads were coming.

~~~

Professore Aldo Stern sat gazing out the large, arched window towards the impossibly blue sea, his long fingers curled around the warmth of what was undoubtedly just the first of many cups of coffee he was going to go through in the course of his day. Yes, it was just the first, but that initial serving of thick, rich brew was always the best.

As he took another sip, his mind briefly flickered back to his musty classroom at the University in Torino.

He had been in Melioria for only a month or so, serving as a member of the Regency Council, adminstering the island on behalf of the missing--and hopefully not deceased--Principe Eslwit. Yet already, that grim and airless lecture hall seemed like nothing more than a vague, half-remembered dream--something that had been imagined, rather than actually experienced. He grimaced slightly, wishing he could forget about that last batch of first year law students.

"Wretched clotpolls ," he thought. "If they had displayed but half the wit and a fourth of the ambition that these Melioria apprentice boys have been demonstrating, I might have considered refusing the appointment to this council."

But he knew that would have been unlikely. In fact. the students meandering in and out of his classroom for the last few years had been an unrelentingly inadequate lot. The odds would have been slim to none for this year's crop to have been any better. And to be honest, he had been entranced by Melioria since the first time he had seen it, back a number of years before, when the bankers from Brussels had brought him here to consult with the Principe on a variety of legal matters. Given the chance to return, even under these doleful circumstances, he had jumped at the opportunity.

Melioriawas simply one of the most exquisitely beautiful places he had ever seen. And in many other ways, Melioria was a remarkable place, truly remarkable. To a great extent this was a reflection of the man who had ruled the island for many years, the Principe Elswit. His influence could felt in so many places on Melioria: the common usage of the english language on the island; the unique and numerous water features with fountains and decorative spillways; the flourishing experimental vineyards and olive groves; even the bizaare house numbering system that probably made sense to him (a scecret code, perhaps?), but which slightly baffled everyone else.

But to Professore Stern, what made the island particularly delightful was the unexpectedly eclectic collection ofpeople who found their way here...

For example, one had only to look at the members of the council to see fascinating and unexpected diversity. His fellow councilorswere such intriguing characters: the mysterious Sir Geoffrey, the English banker who spoke very little of banking, but could go on for hours about architecture; the Principe's sister, Donna Ariella, who had been raised in a convent much of her life, yet was possibly one of the most cheerfully clear-headed and pragmatic thinkers he had ever met; and that odd German Baronessa, with her ever-present pipe clamped in her teeth and her atrocious Italian, speaking more knowledgeably of military tactics and strategy than your average french general.

Then there were the fascinating visitors coming in through the harbor, such as Captain Kungler of the brig Aurelia-- the man was affable, intelligent...and utterly unscrupulous. How did he manage to smuggle to Italy a cargo that contained both illegal beaver belts from the loyal British colonies of Canada, AND tobacco from the rebellious colony of Virginia? How had he gotten away from American privateers, the British Royal Navy, the French navy, AND made it past the Barbary corsairs?

Speaking of the Barbary corsairs, there was that visit from an Ottoman pasha, who turned out to be a well-born englishman who had simply decided he preferred life among the muslim princes and pirates of North Africa. His entourage had included a desert Sheikh, a warrior-prince of the Bedawi--who Professore Stern had found himself getting along quite well with. Who would have thought?

And then there were those apprentices: especially witty, well-read Prospero, the baker's apprentice who was reading the latest works of the tragedian, Alfieri; and studious Fiorino, the apprentice gondolier who was fluent in Greek and Latin...

Why couldn't his students in Torino be more like those boys? Fio and Prospero and Rico, they positively hungered for knowledge; they burned with a desire to learn and to construct lives for themselves that would be better than what chance would have otherwise sent their way.

" No, " the professore mused, " this is an experience--these are people--I would not have missed for the world. "

He thought more about the apprentices. He wished they weren't so fixed in their determination to leave. And it wasn't simply that he would miss their conversation, their eager and earnest discussion of topics ranging from modern Italian literature to ancient artifacts. No...he also felt a vague sense of unease. Something wasn't quite right. It didn't help that the Baronessa kept muttering about things being awry and of lurking dangers...

Captain Kungler had recently offered the Profesore a set of good english pistols. He had turned the offer down, thinking it was not something he required at this point in his life. It had been many, many years since he had handled a firelock.

Reflecting on things now, Professore Aldo Stern decided that he would see if the Captain still had those pistols available...

A distinguished-looking English gentleman is ushered into the office of the principal Director of a certain prominent international banking institution, at its headquarters in Brussels. The Director rises from behind his surprisingly simple desk, greets the gentleman warmly, and indicates to his guest that he should take a chair.While the Director's manservant prepares coffee, the Director hands a document to the englishman, who reads it and then looks up, a curious expression on his face.

"Very well, I shall, of course, take on the duty most willingly. I am honored that he specifically asked that I should be one of those who would be called upon for this task. But...may I enquire...why me?"

The Director smiled as he took the cup of dark,thick coffee that his man was handing to him."My dear Geoffrey, quite simply...the Prince liked you. As he worked with you through our branch in London, when he was in England for so many years, I think he developed a sense of trust in you. And after all, he felt a strong connection to the English side of his heritage...I was not at all surprised to read in the instructions he left for us that he would wish to have an English gentleman on the Regency Council that would govern Melioria if something happened to him."

Geoffrey Edwardtone nodded."Yes he certainly did love all things English. Such a remarkable, enlightened man. And such a shame. But I gather no identifiable corpse was actually found?

The Director shook his head. "No....however the presumption is that he is deceased. There is the minimal chance he was carried off by the hostile aboriginals into the wilderness and may be a prisoner...but it is very, very minimal.

Geoffrey sighed, and then an odd, ironic little smile lit up his face. "Knowing the Principe di Melioria, I should not be surprised if he has found some means of survival. In fact, I would not be entirely shocked were it to turn out that the Prince has charmed the natives into making him the Chief of their tribe, and even now has them all organized doing hydraulic engineering projects..."

The Director laughed, and then his face became serious once again. "That may be, but his instructions to us were to look after the Principessa and his children, and make sure they had all the resources they required, AND to set up this Regency Council to govern the principality until such time as the Prince is either found alive, confirmed as dead, or sufficient time has passed that the death will be a legal presumption. Then, at that time, decisions will be made for the succession of a new ruler. By the way, before leaving on his trip, the Prince already made the necessary discreet contacts with adjoining kingdoms and principalities to ensure that the authority of the Regency Council would be accepted, should it have to be assembled..

Geoffrey Edwardstone looked relieved. "Well that certainly simplifies matters a great deal...I presume the business arrangements will be continued as at present?"

"Yes, absolutely. Melioria is a vital element of our interests. You may wish to close the gambling house, if it does not seem on the road to profitability, and you will continue the transition from the springs being used for a spa, to the bottling of the waters as a curative. But essentially, the town will continue as a resort, with the same expectations that the nobility of various nations will be welcome, though usually incognito...for all the various reasons, of which I have no need to explain, no?"

Geoffrey looked as if he were taking mental notes. "Quite right, Very reasonable, very civilized. So let's see who else is on the Regency Council..." He began studying the final page of the document.

"You know Signor Aldo Stern?" asked the Director.

"Ah...yes...the Piedmontese legal scholar. Good choice. Met him in Hanover during the war. Very sensible gentleman, very thoughtful. I shall enjoy working with him. And I see the prince's sister, Donna Ariella, is on the Regency Council as well. Excellent. Good to have a member of the family on board."

The director smiled. "Yes, she is currently living in the villa, so that will facilitate a sense of continuity. Donna Ariella is rather quiet, and relatively young, but those who have gotten to know her say she is a most intelligent and practical lady. A very good head for numbers, it seems. I am confident you will enjoy working with her as well."

Geoffrey looked back at the paper and arched an eyebrow as he continued reading. "Who's this last one on the list--Diogeneia, Freifrau von Khr? Whatever is someone--who seems to be a german baroness--doing on the council?"

The Director's face gave no hint of any concern. "She is the widow of a German baron--a member of the minor nobility in Franconia. She had relocated to Melioria and developed a friendship and mutual respect with the Prince. His notes indicate that he thought she has an uncommon degree of common sense...the sort of person that the prince tended to appreciate. He was thinking pragmatically as well: he saw a potential value in having another titled person on the Regency Council besides his sister, but one with no ties to any particular court. She will be seen as impartial.

"She has no special allegiance to the Bavarians, or the King in Prussia, perhaps?" asked Geoffrey.

"Only in that she gets a small pension from the Prussian government for the services rendered by her late husband...he was a Rittmeister of cavalry," replied the Director with a slight shrug.

"Indeed? Which regiment?"

"5th Bayreuth Dragoons, I believe. He was awarded the Pour le Merite in the long war."

Geoffrey looked impressed. "Oh splendid...top-shelf horse soldiers, those fellows...and a contract regiment from one of the semi-autonomous margravates. Yes, she'll most likely be delightfully independently-minded. But she'll be a cooperative member of the Council, you think?"

The Director smiled, "My dear Geoffrey, I have every confidence that the Baroness von Khr will act in a way that shall be consistent with what the Prince would have wanted. She has the utmost respect for his memory..." Then he shrugged in that careless, continental way. "And...the bank, after all, has extensive means for gathering useful information that helps us in looking after the interests of the organization and our clients. Had there been any indication she would be the proverbial 'loose cannon,' the document you presently hold in your hands would have disappeared long before now, and an improved but utterly plausible alternative would have been produced."

Geoffrey Edwardstone nodded and silently tucked the document into a leather folder. "We commence immediately, I presume?"

"You depart for Italy, at once, my friend," answered the Director as he guided the englishman out of the office.