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Salon discussion transcript: The Question of Government

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[07:59] JJ Drinkwater: Greetings, gentlefolk
[07:59] Aldo Stern: good day Signor Drinkwater
[08:00] Aria Vyper: good day
[08:01] Aldo Stern: ah good day, Donna Ariella
[08:01] Aldo Stern: may I introduce my good friend Signor Drinkwater
[08:01] Aria Vyper: well hello Signor Drinkwater
[08:01] JJ Drinkwater: The pleasure is entirely mine, Donna Ariella
[08:01] Aldo Stern: JJ, allow me to present la Dona Ariella, another member of our ruling council
[08:02] Nimue Brezoianu: Greetings Signori
[08:02] Aldo Stern: ah Contessa
[08:02] Aldo Stern: I am gratified you could attend
[08:02] Aria Vyper: good day Contessa
[08:02] Nimue Brezoianu: Hello Signor Stern
[08:02] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): guten tag
[08:02] Nimue Brezoianu: Buon Giorno Signira Vyper
[08:03] Nimue Brezoianu: Hello Baronessa
[08:03] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): Contessa, it is very good to see you
[08:03] Nimue Brezoianu: Greetings Monsieur
[08:03] Nimue Brezoianu: And its very nice to finally meet you Baronessa
[08:04] JJ Drinkwater: Good day, Freifrau von Kuhr
[08:04] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the pleasure is all mine, Contessa
[08:04] Aldo Stern: please , let's proceed into the coffee house
[08:05] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): sehr gut, I am needing the coffee very badly
[08:05] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): too early it is
[08:05] JJ Drinkwater bows the ladies in
[08:06] Aldo Stern: *signals for coffee to be brought*
[08:09] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): Bonjour tout
[08:10] JJ Drinkwater: Bonjour, Mamdame
[08:10] Aldo Stern: buongiorno, Signora
[08:10] Aldo Stern: welcome
[08:10] Aldo Stern: we have not commenced as yet
[08:10] Aldo Stern: we are very pleased to have you join us
[08:10] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): merci
[08:10] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): glad to be here
[08:10] Nimue Brezoianu: Buon Giorno Madame
[08:11] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare) smiles at Chere Contessa Foscari
[08:11] Aldo Stern: very well, let us begin...
[08:11] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): Bonjour Professor, lovely to see you again
[08:12] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare) smiles at others
[08:12] Aldo Stern: when we look back to the example of the classical world, and the writings of the ancient political philosophers of Greece and Rome
[08:12] Aldo Stern: we can see laid out for us, almost every form of government that can be applied to a people or a nation
[08:12] Aldo Stern: monarchy
[08:13] Aldo Stern: oligarchy and democracy
[08:13] Aldo Stern: tyranny
[08:13] Aldo Stern: and mixtures of all of those
[08:13] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Good evening
[08:13] Nimue Brezoianu: Good evening Luis
[08:14] Aldo Stern: Athens, for one, experienced them all at one time or another
[08:14] Nimue Brezoianu: How nice to see you again
[08:14] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): thanks
[08:14] Aldo Stern: but today..for us in the modern world of 1780...
[08:14] Aldo Stern: what do our modern philosophers and political thinkers say to us on the subject...and what is the best of these systems for us?
[08:15] Aldo Stern: buongirono signor,
[08:15] Aldo Stern: thank you for joining us
[08:15] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): buona sera.... Interesting topic
[08:15] JJ Drinkwater: Now, when we speak of democracy, we must say what a citizen is
[08:15] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): Bonjour Monsieur Bowenford
[08:15] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): *nods and smiles the gentleman who sits next to her*
[08:16] Aldo Stern: ah a good question Signor Drinkwater...do you have thoughts upon that?
[08:16] JJ Drinkwater: I have more questions than thoughts...
[08:16] Aria Vyper: welcome Vanessa
[08:17] Vanessa Montpenier: buongiorno
[08:17] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the thoughts start with the questions, ja?
[08:17] Vanessa Montpenier: Greetings
[08:17] Nimue Brezoianu: Greetings madame Montpenier
[08:17] Aldo Stern: buongiorno Donna Vanessa
[08:17] JJ Drinkwater: Is every resident of the state to be accorded rights of citizenship? Even those who know no better than to be guided by bare self-interest?
[08:17] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): I believe in Greek times, not all residents of the city-state were citizens
[08:18] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): citizens have duties
[08:18] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): and responsibilities
[08:18] JJ Drinkwater: And must, therefore, be fit for those duties and responsibilities
[08:18] Aldo Stern: do they also have to have judgement, and a certain level of learning perhaps in order to fulfill those duties ?
[08:19] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): judgment you can only hope, learning should be...in a modern democracy be provided by the state
[08:19] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): *modern
[08:19] Aldo Stern: *signals for a chair to to be moved in for Don Luis*
[08:19] JJ Drinkwater: Will the state then educate everyone?
[08:20] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): thank you
[08:20] Nimue Brezoianu: Maybe the state will educate everyone one day
[08:20] Aldo Stern: it seems that if one is to have democracy, then some form of improvement must be extended to all who will participate
[08:20] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): The state should provide free education
[08:21] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): for all....citizens
[08:21] JJ Drinkwater: But *can* every individual be educated to the duties of citizenship?
[08:21] Aldo Stern: otherwise they might be too easily misled and manipulated
[08:21] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): If the schooling is proper, I believe we could accomplish that
[08:22] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): or at least that is what we are trying back home
[08:22] Nimue Brezoianu: I greatly hope that one day it will be like this
[08:22] Nimue Brezoianu: meanwhile I will continue to sponsor the apprentices and a school for them
[08:22] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): Indeed Contessa school is the key
[08:22] JJ Drinkwater: The ancient world had, as il professore points out, also its demagogues...manipulators of the vote
[08:22] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but there are those who would argue that the common people are possessed of a common sense....
[08:22] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): they have to have that sense to live their lives, which are hard and challenging
[08:22] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): will they not see through the ones who would manipulate them?
[08:23] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): when people are educated they become "uncommon" no matter their birth
[08:24] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): I will go a step further...common people...need education the most, to change their agriculture life, to fit a new futuristic industrial one
[08:24] Nimue Brezoianu: Yes but if it were so for every soul in the community, it would quickly become "Common"
[08:24] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): we need to turn agriculturalists into employers for the most part of citizens
[08:24] Aldo Stern: ah but Signor Drinkwater has an excellent point ...we can see in history examples of demagogues who by their oratorical abilities, or cleverness
[08:24] Aldo Stern: or deceit
[08:24] Aldo Stern: ....made the citizens make choices that were not best for the state
[08:25] JJ Drinkwater bows to il professore in acknowledgement of his wisdom
[08:25] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): I am not so sure of the benefits of moving away from agriculture...
[08:25] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): for those who work on the land, there are certain sets of virtues and values that go with that...
[08:25] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): There are...but none in the factories
[08:25] Nimue Brezoianu: If the individual was taught as a youngster to think for himself, he would be less likely to be
[08:25] JJ Drinkwater: And are those rustic values the values of a citizen?
[08:25] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): moving people to cities and taking them into industry has great dangers...

[08:26] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the cities are dens of vice and degradation
[08:26] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): when country people move to industry, they are late to work, because in the field punctuality matters not
[08:26] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): in factories it matters most...education will show them to get to class in time
[08:26] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): they will learn, citezenship...and punctuality
[08:26] JJ Drinkwater: Surely the majority of labor in a state will always be agricultural....else how will the state be fed?
[08:26] Diogeneia (diogenes kuhr): it is in our nature to have a connection to the land
[08:27] Aldo Stern: I think the Baronessa, has a particular viewpoint on this, having managed a rural estate with her husband, the Freiherr von Khr
[08:27] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): It is indeed madame. but is also in man's nature to want to better themselves. Good or Bad, most see working in the city as a betterment
[08:27] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): being better citizens and good employees is paramount
[08:27] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): I have seen the country people and the city people both
[08:27] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): from my perhaps simple perspective, it seems that the country people make a better citizen
[08:28] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): they make better soldiers too
[08:28] Nimue Brezoianu: I also run an agricultural estate
[08:28] Nimue Brezoianu: so I do appreciate the need to keep some of the population working the land
[08:28] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): but how can you keep them there, if they see a better life.
[08:28] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): in the city[08:28] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Well, ladies are you familiar with the writings of a french author named Rousseau?
[08:29] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): he agrees with you about country folk being better, more....noble?
[08:29] JJ Drinkwater: but for those who work the land....have they the leisure to be educated?
[08:29] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ja
[08:29] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): "the good savage" I believe he called them
[08:29] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): he makes some sense in that I think
[08:29] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): Naturally Monsieur Rousseau is a great countryman
[08:28] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): in the city[08:29] Nimue Brezoianu: many go to the city, and then return preferring the rural life
[08:29] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): I honestly believe that there is good and bad in both
[08:30] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): There are lovely people in the city and horrible people in the country
[08:30] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): City life has more challenge, rural people learn deceit, learn to appear what they are not, therefore Rosseau said nobody can stay pure in any city[08:30] Aldo Stern: but then it seems we are saying....going back to our question...that you are arguing that a democracy would be an ideal form of government
[08:30] Aldo Stern: provided that the people who will be its citizens can be educated
[08:30] Aldo Stern: and formed into good citizens who will not be mislead and use good judgement?
[08:31] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Yes, democracy does seem the way to go
[08:31] JJ Drinkwater: But does not education of the mass of individuals pose great problems?
[08:31] Aldo Stern: it does indeed
[08:31] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): People should be planted where they will grow to use an agricultural metaphor
[08:31] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): many will do better in the cities
[08:31] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Then again, Plato did warn us that is only possible with a population under 10,000
[08:31] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): how are we going to make sure of that number?
[08:31] Aldo Stern: let us accept Don Luis' contention that democracy would be an ideal goal
[08:32] Aldo Stern: but must there be steps in between to get there?
[08:32] Nimue Brezoianu: make both choices equally attractive
[08:32] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): and many will be better in the country
[08:32] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): I believe choice is the key
[08:33] JJ Drinkwater: Indeed, how are we to undertake the education of those who now labor all their days to get bread?
[08:33] Aldo Stern: hmm a good question
[08:33] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): that is the question indeed
[08:33] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): and what of women?
[08:33] Nimue Brezoianu: Maybe we start with the children when they are very young
[08:33] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): maybe one child from a family is given an eduation
[08:33] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): my brothers were sent to a jesuit school
[08:34] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but what education I had was from them and the books they sent me
[08:34] Nimue Brezoianu: at least teach them the basic skills of reading and writing
[08:34] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): the one who shows the most promise
[08:34] Nimue Brezoianu: this could be done through the churches
[08:34] JJ Drinkwater: Then the son will be a citizen when the father is not? Will the people accept this?
[08:34] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): could be sent to the church
[08:34] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but then *smiles* no one expects the women to be citizens, eh?
[08:35] JJ Drinkwater: On the contrary, Frau Khr....are not women rational beings?
[08:35] Nimue Brezoianu: Well there many who would disagree with that view point
[08:35] Nimue Brezoianu smiles
[08:35] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): for now I believe women need to undertake the teaching of our daughters quietly
[08:35] JJ Drinkwater looks around the table
[08:35] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): grow their minds
[08:35] Nimue Brezoianu: I feel that both sexes should be taught the basics
[08:36] JJ Drinkwater: And what are the basics of education?
[08:36] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): make them strong and eventually they will be a force to be dealt with
[08:36] Nimue Brezoianu: I also feel that females can learn just as well as males
[08:36] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): Indeed Contessa
[08:36] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): you are a prime example of that
[08:37] Nimue Brezoianu: As are all the ladies here
[08:37] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): You run your family businesss most successfully
[08:37] Nimue Brezoianu grins[08:37] Aldo Stern: well..this brings up another question...related to who is a citizen...in addition to women, does a democracy function best when those who are making decisions are only those who own property?
[08:37] Aldo Stern: the argument may be made that good decisions in a democracy are based upon having a solid interest in what is good for the nation
[08:37] Aldo Stern: and that enlightened sense of interest is fostered by holding a stake in it--the property you hold
[08:37] Nimue Brezoianu: The question of Property will be an issue
[08:37] JJ Drinkwater: And can every common laborer think wisely about the good of the nation, or does that take a certain enlightened perspective?
[08:38] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): hmmmm
[08:38] Nimue Brezoianu: Realistically each individual will firstly think of what is good for himself and his family
[08:38] Nimue Brezoianu: but if that coincides with what is good for the state
[08:38] Nimue Brezoianu: the individual will support the state
[08:38] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): what if his interest is at odds with the common good?
[08:39] Nimue Brezoianu: Hmmmm
[08:39] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Will they?
[08:39] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): not sure
[08:39] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): what is the state for them?
[08:39] Nimue Brezoianu: There will always be the odd one out
[08:39] Aldo Stern: or the odd several
[08:39] Nimue Brezoianu giggles
[08:39] Nimue Brezoianu: yes
[08:40] Aldo Stern: that question may be one to discuss in further detail at some other point
[08:40] Nimue Brezoianu: But democracy allows for this
[08:40] JJ Drinkwater: Indeed, there will always be times when the individual will try to profit at the expense of the common good...what then?
[08:40] Nimue Brezoianu: Take countries like England that has a parliament
[08:40] Nimue Brezoianu: they have several parties that debate questions
[08:40] Nimue Brezoianu: so all points of view are given a chance to be heard...ideally, of course
[08:40] Aldo Stern: clearly there are issues to pursuing democracy
[08:40] Aldo Stern: which is an ideal
[08:40] Aldo Stern: but certainly can go very wrong
[08:40] Aldo Stern: and to get there, requires a process...and education for everyone, we seem to agree
[08:41] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): yes education must be a key point
[08:41] Aldo Stern: until as such time as a people are ready for democracy is there another system that might work best?
[08:41] Aldo Stern: have we any monarchists here?
[08:41] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): *coughs*
[08:41] Nimue Brezoianu: I am from a republic
[08:41] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): I happen to have some of the actual kings in esteem
[08:41] Nimue Brezoianu: be we do have a figurehead
[08:42] JJ Drinkwater: If a monarch seeks only the good of the state, is that not also a path to good government?
[08:42] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): *shrugs* perhaps I am closest to that viewpoint
[08:42] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): yes it is
[08:42] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): for even though I was not, strictly speaking a subject of the Prussian king
[08:42] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): we served him and followed him
[08:43] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): and respected him greatly as an autocrat, yes, but one who saw himself as a servant of the state...
[08:43] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the first citizen in effect
[08:43] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): with great duties and responsiblities
[08:43] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the state came first for him
[08:43] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): not his own desires and lusts and passions
[08:43] JJ Drinkwater: So perhaps we should look to the eduction of one, the monarch, before we look to the education of many
[08:44] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Well maybe the king and some others around him must have a specific education?
[08:44] Aldo Stern: ah well...good point Signor Drinkwater...there is a need to educate the rulers?
[08:44] Aldo Stern: the Baronessa's King Frederick is a man of the enlightenment....a friend of Voltaire ---very well educated
[08:44] JJ Drinkwater: All those who exert influence over the fate of the nation, then, should be taught how to pursue the common good
[08:45] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): yes, they need a more...private education
[08:46] Aldo Stern: but there is a risk in relying on a single man or a small group...
[08:46] JJ Drinkwater signals for more coffee
[08:46] Nimue Brezoianu: Yes I have heard that the King of prussia is very well educated
[08:47] Nimue Brezoianu: I have heard that Gustav of sweden is similar
[08:47] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Then perhaps as mister Locke said, the subjects should remind the rulers of their "social contract"?
[08:47] Nimue Brezoianu: Times are changing
[08:47] Aldo Stern: I shared with you all some readings..including one from Signor Hobbes
[08:47] Aldo Stern: in which he makes the point that a monarchy in its ideal form may be best form of government...
[08:48] Aldo Stern: but that it is incumbent upon the monarch to keep his own desires and feelings in check
[08:48] Aldo Stern: or it will go terribly wrong
[08:48] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): that sounds wise
[08:48] JJ Drinkwater: If the monarch is sufficiently enlightened, then?
[08:48] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): like in ancient Rome
[08:49] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): if Nero or Caligula could have kept their personal desires in check, they might even have been excellent rulers
[08:49] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Caligula was actually quite smart when not spending time in parties
[08:49] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): it is hard for a man who has too much power, to not be drawn into using that power for his own purposes, and not those of the collective good of his people and nation
[08:49] Nimue Brezoianu: It is also best if that monarch pays attention to what is happening
[08:49] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): it is Nim
[08:50] Nimue Brezoianu: I have spent time in Versailles and Louis XVI is a sweet and gentle man...
[08:50] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): he is
[08:50] Nimue Brezoianu: ...but he lives in a bubble with no idea of what is happening outside the walls of Versailles
[08:50] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): is the French king an educated man?
[08:51] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): He is
[08:51] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): believe me I can tell
[08:51] JJ Drinkwater: So, the monarch must be, not only enlightened, but well-informed...
[08:51] Nimue Brezoianu: He is a very educated man
[08:51] Nimue Brezoianu: but completely out of touch with his country
[08:51] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): enlightened, well informed and proactive
[08:52] JJ Drinkwater: ...and who is responsible for informing the monarch of the state of the nation?
[08:52] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): he needs to react to that information
[08:52] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): on behalf of his citizens
[08:52] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): well secretaries
[08:52] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): they report on a weekly basis
[08:52] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): so it is not just education...do you think he cares for his people?
[08:52] Nimue Brezoianu: I think somehow the Monarch must make his own efforts to inform himself
[08:53] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): I do believe he does.....yet he might not think of all residents as "HIS PEOPLE"
[08:53] Nimue Brezoianu: he also needs to be a good judge of character, to surround himself with the right advisors
[08:53] JJ Drinkwater: So, the ministers and secretaries must also have the proper education, and the interest of the nation at heart
[08:53] Nimue Brezoianu: Yes indeed
[08:53] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): yes, and the ministers should also be role models ...it gets ugly when they too have their desires unchecked
[08:53] Aldo Stern: a good point---so then do the assistants to the King, become a sort of oligarchy?
[08:54] Aldo Stern: a special group of well qualified people
[08:54] Aldo Stern: the best citizens
[08:54] Aldo Stern: to help the monarch in ruling?
[08:54] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): they become corrupt too
[08:54] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): when given to much power
[08:54] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): they can be corrupted, but good education, and a decent salary might prevent it
[08:55] Nimue Brezoianu: What you say is the sad case in Venice
[08:55] JJ Drinkwater: So how are the oligarchs to be chosen?
[08:55] JJ Drinkwater: By the monarch?
[08:55] Aldo Stern: well let us consider that Signor Drinkwater...
[08:55] Aldo Stern: for example, how are the councilors and the chancellors of the english king chosen?
[08:55] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): well if they get picked by the king, they might be chosen by friendship
[08:56] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): but imagine if they were picked by the people...then they would not feel obligated to the king
[08:55] Aldo Stern: arguably they have a successful mixture there--a monarch
[08:56] Aldo Stern: and an oligarchy in his advisors and the house of lords
[08:56] Aldo Stern: and then even a basic form of democracy in the house of commons
[08:56] JJ Drinkwater: But then might not they be demagogues?
[08:56] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): they usually turn so, I have heard
[08:57] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): and bring riots in the name of the people
[08:57] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): maybe that is what Voltaire was trying to address in his witticism about democracy
[08:58] JJ Drinkwater: The problem with both democracy and monarchy seems to be controlling human cupidity and self-interest
[08:58] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): cupidity?
[08:58] Aldo Stern: *nods* that is clearly what many of the political thinkers and philosophers have stated
[08:58] JJ Drinkwater: "Cupidity: Excessive desire, especially for wealth"
[08:59] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Thanks signor....I got lost in translation
[08:59] Aldo Stern: as Montesquieu said, virtue is necessary in a popular form of government and even more so in a monarchy
[09:00] JJ Drinkwater: So is the question then how we promote virtue?
[09:00] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): In short VIRTUE is a resource needed in both rulers and residents
[09:00] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): then perhaps we are saying that it is not one or other form of government that is best... but that any governments success is dependent on those who rule--whether it is monarch, the people or the oligarchs
[09:01] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): well, so far....religion has played a part in the creation of virtue, but not always successfully
[09:01] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): We may not know what is best, but there are some we can agree are intolerable
[09:01] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): whoever rules we need them to be reasonable, thoughtful and virtuous
[09:02] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): and I must add sensible
[09:02] Aldo Stern: and by virtue, I think we mean, civic virtue
[09:02] Aldo Stern: not unlike the virtues of the best of the ancient romans
[09:02] Aldo Stern: honor duty, self sacrifice
[09:02] Nimue Brezoianu: Maybe that is where basic education comes in
[09:02] JJ Drinkwater: Education can make us reasonable and thoughtful....but can it make the wicked virtuous?
[09:02] Nimue Brezoianu: No it probably can't
[09:02] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): No never!
[09:02] Nimue Brezoianu: and the trully wicked will use it for their own ends
[09:03] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): I have seen some reasonable and virtuous people that are unsensible in other matters of life
[09:03] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ja, sometimes the common sense is pretty uncommon
[09:03] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): we are speaking of two different things. character has nothing to do with education in my opinion
[09:03] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): You are born with character
[09:03] JJ Drinkwater: Then we must look to the formation of character and common sense, must we not?
[09:04] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): yes we do need that
[09:04] Nimue Brezoianu: I completely agree
[09:04] Aldo Stern: and where can that come from?
[09:04] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): I do believe character could be...modeled
[09:05] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): well Madame Bourbon is right we are born with a character
[09:05] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): but it changes with the life's experiences
[09:05] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): I agree it can change to a certain extent
[09:05] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): So we need to get the young ones to live certain experiences
[09:05] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): but say by about 15 you have your basic values
[09:05] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): maybe 21
[09:06] Nimue Brezoianu: so somehow children could be exposed to experiences that will chalenge them and make them more aware
[09:06] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): you know what you believe in your core
[09:06] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): you know right from wrong
[09:06] Nimue Brezoianu: Yes
[09:06] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): and whether you plan on following the "right" path
[09:06] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): be you a farmer or a Prince
[09:07] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Yes, but although you are sure of your character by 21... there will still be changes, life transforming changes until you reach old age
[09:07] JJ Drinkwater: So we must look to the upbringing of the young
[09:07] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): this is true
[09:07] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): but your basic character will dictate how you deal with the life issues
[09:08] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Then the state must have a role for that character, so that people feel useful in that role
[09:09] JJ Drinkwater: Or the state must be such that a citizen can promote its good by pursuing his private concerns
[09:09] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): you mean the state must admit....the pursuit of happiness?
[09:09] Nimue Brezoianu: That would be marvolous
[09:09] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): in Prussia everyone has a role...from king to peasant..and all is for the good of the state
[09:10] JJ Drinkwater: Tell us more, Frau Khr
[09:10] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): you have a duty, you know what it is...and you fulfill that role
[09:10] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): for example, the king works hard
[09:10] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): in the wars he was always with his soldiers
[09:11] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): when things got really bad, he went in front of them ..leading from the front
[09:11] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): he knew what his role was
[09:11] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the minor nobility like my husband...
[09:11] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): they are all farmers and officers
[09:11] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): farmers in peacetime...officers in war
[09:11] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): were they satisfied to be that?
[09:11] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): *shrugs* it is just what you do
[09:11] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the merchants in doing their work, they supply the state and the army
[09:12] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): they are necessary...they build the economy of the nation
[09:12] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): and the peasantry, they, like the nobility...in peace, they work the land...
[09:12] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): in war, the serve as the common soldiers
[09:12] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): each has his role and knows it
[09:13] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): is it enough to know what role the king has given you?
[09:13] JJ Drinkwater: So the state works because each member knows his place?
[09:14] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): it is not the king who gives the roles
[09:14] JJ Drinkwater bows to the ladies "Or her place"
[09:14] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): it is ...our society
[09:14] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Oh then who? themselves?
[09:14] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): I am sorry I must go
[09:14] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): so the farmer chooses to be a soldier?
[09:14] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Take care Madame Bourbon
[09:14] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): thank you for a stimulating conversaton
[09:14] Aldo Stern: some yes they do
[09:14] Marie Louise de Bourbon (belladonna.ohare): Au revoir tout
[09:15] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): interesting...
[09:15] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): it is not so much a nation with an army
[09:15] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): as it is an army with a nation
[09:15] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): and do all citizens accept these roles easily, no one disagrees with each others choice?
[09:16] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): as I said, it is simply what we do...that said *smiles* at this point in my life
[09:16] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): happier here I am, where my role is perhaps not so clear
[09:16] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): and may be more one of my own invention
[09:17] JJ Drinkwater: Indeed, must we not ask what happens in such a state when someone is discontented with his place?
[09:17] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): and yes, mein herr, there is coercion
[09:17] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): it is not always willingly
[09:17] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but it not always grudgingly either
[09:17] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): it helps when the King himself is seen to do his duty...
[09:18] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): to lead and play his part, when in his heart, he would rather be at San Souci playing his flute and talking to philosophers and poets
[09:18] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): *laughs* I think there is a reason he named his palace what he did
[09:18] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but we do not always get to do what we wish in life
[09:18] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): I am not familiar with his palace...What name is that?
[09:19] Aldo Stern: "without care"
[09:19] Aldo Stern: Sans Souci
[09:19] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): thanks for the translation
[09:19] JJ Drinkwater: [[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanssouci ]
[09:20] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but you all make a good point
[09:20] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): individuals do not always want to do what is good for the collective good\
[09:20] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): they do not always wish to fulfill their responsibilities
[09:21] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): maybe the education should focus at first on the several benefits of collective good
[09:21] Aldo Stern: and in a place like Prussia that might result in punishment
[09:21] JJ Drinkwater: And *does* the state impose penalties in that case?
[09:21] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ja
[09:21] JJ Drinkwater: On all equally?
[09:22] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): there is first the social pressure applied
[09:22] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): then there are different forms of punishment...but yes it is applied to all
[09:23] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but as I said...
[09:23] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): like my husband, like his dragoons...I did my duty...
[09:23] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): now I am happy to sit in the italian sunshine and drink very good coffee
[09:24] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): I drink to that
[09:24] Aldo Stern: and collect your pension from the Prussian government
[09:24] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): *laughs* ja, that is the other side of the equation
[09:24] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Well in that case, maybe all we need is to have a King Frederick in every nation
[09:24] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): we have a duty to the state
[09:24] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but the state in turn has a duty to us
[09:25] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Isn't it a shame good rulers are due to die some day
[09:25] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): and that almost as a rule...almost...after a good ruler comes a not so good one?
[09:25] Aldo Stern: actually that is a good point
[09:25] Aldo Stern: I do not think it necessarily a law of nature
[09:26] Aldo Stern: but it does seem to be a recurring theme in history
[09:26] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): it has happened more than once
[09:26] Aldo Stern: that after a Marcus Aurelius
[09:26] Aldo Stern: there comes a Commodus
[09:27] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): After Tiberius came Caligula, after Claudius, Nero
[09:27] Aldo Stern: ladies and gentlemen
[09:27] Aldo Stern: we are well over an hour now...
[09:27] Aldo Stern: in the event more need to leave soon
[09:28] Aldo Stern: are there final thoughts you would wish to share?
[09:28] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): Good goverment should rest on a system, not only on a ruler
[09:28] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): and it must help people grow to their full potential
[09:28] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): and the people who work in that system, they need the education...and the civic virtues
[09:29] JJ Drinkwater: My final thought is that a government...or a nation....must not ignore the good and the bad qualities of human nature.
[09:29] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): true
[09:29] Aldo Stern: what do you mean Signor Drinkwater?
[09:30] JJ Drinkwater: We have spoken of two forms of government, and in both cases have had much talk of human virtue, and human vice
[09:30] JJ Drinkwater: Human virtue to pursue the collective good, and human vice to subvert it
[09:31] JJ Drinkwater: So it appears we cannot think of government without thinking of those who govern and are governed
[09:31] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): perhaps a better word, rather than vice...
[09:31] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): would be human weakness
[09:31] JJ Drinkwater bows to Freifrau Kuhr
[09:32] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): ...and history has taught us that every virtuous man has a dark side were vice resides, we do good in having in mind that both sides coexist.
[09:32] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): my friends, I am afraid it is time for me to depart
[09:32] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): for speaking of duties
[09:32] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): awww
[09:32] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): I have mine on behalf of the regency council
[09:32] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): too bad
[09:32] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): *smiles* so i suppose I am still behaving like a typical german, driven by my sense of duty
[09:33] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): I thank you all for this enlightened chat
[09:33] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): driven by my sense of duty
[09:33] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): I wish you all a good day
[09:33] Luis Bowenford (luyxmex.bowenford): take care Frau Diogenia
[09:33] JJ Drinkwater: Farewell, Madame
[09:33] Aldo Stern: it has been a pleasure baronessa
[09:33] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): Auf wiedersehen
updated by @aldo-stern: 06 Oct 2016 06:08:29AM

Melioria Salon discussion transcript - "Military Aspects of the Rebellion in Britain's American Colonies"

Communty News & Events

Melioria Salon - "Military Aspects of the Rebellion in Britain's American Colonies"

13 August 2011

Attending: Sere Timeless, Aldo Stern, Fiorino Pera, Diogeneia von Khr, Prospero Pastorelli, Aria Vyper, Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny, Oona Riaxik , Rico Millefiori, Vicomte de Chiverny Jean Andr d'Ambleville, Ernst Osterham

Photos: https://picasaweb.google.com/109722012977197738104/Melioria

[10:03] Aldo Stern: Think of this like the coffee houses of London and Vienna and Venizia where the discussion is open to all thoughtful people, and the only rule is civility and courtesy

[10:04] Aldo Stern: Thank you for joining us, everyone

[10:05] Aldo Stern: I am turning leadership of this discussion over to the Baronessa as she has perhaps the most familiarity with this subject

[10:06] Diogeneia von Khr: Danke, Herr Professor

[10:06] Diogeneia von Khr: may I ask, have you all received the readings and notes I prepared in advance?

[10:07] Fiorino Pera: Signora, s.

[10:07] Prospero Pastorelli: Yes, I have read them.

[10:07] Sere Timeless: Receive yes -- fully read and digest, no.

[10:07] Diogeneia von Khr: hah, that is quite all right Fraulein...you will do fine I am sure

[10:07] Oona Riaxik: yes

[10:08] Oona Riaxik: thank you

[10:08] Diogeneia von Khr: Remember this not like one of the Professor's lectures at the university in Torino. I will not quizzing you at the end.

[10:08] Diogeneia von Khr: There is no right or wrong...but questions that are merely food for thought

[10:10] Diogeneia von Khr: ((also please remember we are in the year 1780 so the rebellion is still underway, and will not end for another three years))

[10:11] Diogeneia von Khr: Today, the Professor has asked me to lead a discussion of purely military questions arising from the Rebellion in the British colonies of North America...

[10:12] Diogeneia von Khr: This is not about the philosophical foundations of that conflict, nor the economic and political issues. Perhaps we will discuss that another day.

[10:12] Diogeneia von Khr: *smiles*

[10:12] Diogeneia von Khr: Today, it is merely questions about the military aspects of the conflict.

[10:12] Diogeneia von Khr: And may I suggest to start... how is possible do you think that the rebellious colonists are still competing militarily with one of the best armies in the world? and one that is certainly supported by what is undoubtedly the best navy.

[10:14] Diogeneia von Khr: It seems very unlikely that they would have lasted this long.

[10:14] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: I suppose I can provide the French perspective.

[10:14] Diogeneia von Khr: Very well, Herr Vicomte, please proceed

[10:15] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: I do not think the colonists stand a chance without the intervention of the French fleet.

[10:16] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: With His Majesty's fleet, there is a real threat posed as a counterweight to British naval dominance.

[10:17] Sere Timeless: The French have also sent soldiers, have they not?

[10:18] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: My friend the Marquis de Lafayette has been assisting General Washington on the ground

[10:18] Aldo Stern: Yes, and also weapons and other equipment for the Americans to use on land.

[10:18] Oona Riaxik: Perhaps the French have found other ways to show their support without risking war with Britain

[10:18] Aldo Stern: Well Fraulein Oona, they are already well into the war now, and in fact as the Vicomte points out they can relieve pressure on the colonists in certain ways.

[10:19] Oona Riaxik: ah oui 1780, pardon

[10:19] Aldo Stern: Their fleet so far has not done too well in fighting off the New England coast, but they have drawn away British squadrons to fight in other places such as the West Indies

[10:19] Aldo Stern: the British must defend their holdings there and that spreads their resources thinner

[10:20] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: With the French fleet the British can no longer plan a full invasion like they did a few summers ago

[10:23] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: I can only hope that we will regain our lost colonies from the British as well as our lost prestige.

[10:21] Diogeneia von Khr: Ja..this is all very important--the war obviously cannot end well for the colonists without allies

[10:22] Diogeneia von Khr: if they succeed ultimately it may be argued that the French will make the difference

[10:22] Oona Riaxik: But they come so far using partly for using new tactics some learned from the natives

[10:22] Diogeneia von Khr: But this has only been the case for the last few years...how have they managed to field an army and keep it intact up until that point when the French became their allies?

[10:23] Oona Riaxik: and some from the frontiersmen. These guerrilla skirmishes in the south have been very successful

[10:23] Diogeneia von Khr: ah, it is interesting you mention that fraulein Oona

[10:23] Oona Riaxik: the British cannot figure out where they are or when the next attacks will be as they cling to an older and proscribed method of battle

[10:23] Diogeneia von Khr: but to fight like the natives with hit and run, you may stretch out a war, but you cannot win

[10:24] Fiorino Pera: To me it seems there is one thing that the Americans have that the great powers do not have: the English fight for possessions, the French fight for prestige: the colonists fight for their lands and families and way of life.

[10:24] Diogeneia von Khr: and do not forget that the British also have their Indian allies in America

[10:24] Oona Riaxik: oui, the French will have to be the decisive blow

[10:24] Aldo Stern: oh an excellent point, Fiorino

[10:24] Fiorino Pera: Thank you, Professore.

[10:25] Aldo Stern: the asset that is intangible

[10:25] Oona Riaxik: this explains their persistence but not the success of an army that is not well supplied

[10:26] Diogeneia von Khr: ah very good point Fraulein Oona

[10:26] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Let us also not forget the intervention of Spain

[10:26] Oona Riaxik: Bonjour Signor Osterham

[10:26] Diogeneia von Khr: guten tag Herr Osterham, please join us

[10:26] Ernst Osterham nods politely and sets his hat on the table

[10:27] Fiorino bows his head to the newcomer

[10:27] Diogeneia von Khr: yes..the Spanish. and who knows the Dutch may join in as well before long

[10:27] Diogeneia von Khr: but again...

[10:27] Diogeneia von Khr: the British have their own allies

[10:27] Prospero Pastorelli: So this is just another European war?

[10:27] Oona Riaxik: the British have to have everything shipped in while the colonists can provide for themselves, however meagerly

[10:27] Oona Riaxik: by destroying supply lines and ammunition ambushes, the colonists

[10:28] Oona Riaxik: have been able to survive thus far

[10:28] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: The Bourbons have shown themselves more dedicated to liberty than any other monarchy

[10:28] Diogeneia von Khr: the German principalities which have sent troops...including one of my brothers who is an officer of Jaegers from Ansbach Bayreuth

[10:28] Diogeneia von Khr: and again, the natives

[10:28] Diogeneia von Khr: who are very formidable allies

[10:29] Oona Riaxik: the Baron deKalb has almost singlehandedly saved the colonist army form caving in on itself

[10:29] Aldo Stern: ah Prospero's question

[10:29] Aldo Stern: no not just another european war...it is becoming a war across the world

[10:29] Ernst Osterham: Ah, but that has happened before, has it not?

[10:30] Aldo Stern: a world war you mean?

[10:30] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Just as the last war, the Seven years war was a world conflict

[10:30] Ernst Osterham: Nay, but when Britain and France fight, they fight wherever they find each other

[10:30] Ernst Osterham nods

[10:30] Oona Riaxik: oui

[10:30] Ernst Osterham: Yes

[10:30] Diogeneia von Khr: ahaha, good point Herr Osterham

[10:30] Oona Riaxik: the consequences form this war in the colonies will shake the foundations of Europe

[10:30] Prospero Pastorelli: World conflict? Or a war where the Europeans go and fight on other people's land?

[10:31] Ernst Osterham: The latter

[10:31] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: The days of European wars are over, each war started in Europe will be fought far from home as well as close

[10:31] Prospero Pastorelli: Baronessa, I have a question about the Germans.

[10:32] Prospero Pastorelli: Are the Germans really fighting at a people allied with another? or are these mercenary armies hired to fight?

[10:32] Diogeneia von Khr: but to Prospero's question--I think it is not just that Europeans are fighting their wars on other people's lands..those people are involved as well...each for their own interests

[10:32] Diogeneia von Khr: the colonists, the red indians of North America...

[10:32] Diogeneia von Khr: the native people in India

[10:33] Diogeneia von Khr: they all have their own interests to seek to advance

[10:33] Diogeneia von Khr: and as for the Germans

[10:33] Diogeneia von Khr: they are professionals...but it is not so simple a thing as just they were contracted...

[10:34] Diogeneia von Khr: there are matters of allegiance

[10:34] Diogeneia von Khr: remember the rulers of Brittan are Germans

[10:34] Prospero Pastorelli: Yes

[10:34] Diogeneia von Khr: but if I may

[10:35] Diogeneia von Khr: let us go back to the army of the colonists

[10:35] Oona Riaxik: and their future in America after the war where they will be free to own land, be unified, and be not beholden to a lord

[10:35] Diogeneia von Khr: it is not merely a rabble

[10:35] Diogeneia von Khr: a mob with muskets

[10:35] Diogeneia von Khr: that is why in the readings I included General Washington's general orders for just a few days right after he took command

[10:36] Diogeneia von Khr: you can see how we was imposing order and discipline

[10:36] Diogeneia von Khr: creating a real army

[10:36] Diogeneia von Khr: he was after all an officer of the English army in the 7 years war

[10:36] Oona Riaxik: and his hero, Vernon, one the greatest officers of the British army

[10:37] Ernst Osterham: Very true, though it is often seen as such by those who don't look as close as they should....to their downfall oftentimes

[10:37] Diogeneia von Khr: others of his officers they are self taught

[10:37] Fiorino Pera: Yes, I did read that. I was impressed by his sense of honor and discipline for his men.

[10:37] Diogeneia von Khr: like the General Greene

[10:37] Diogeneia von Khr: or General Arnold...I am not sure of him

[10:37] Diogeneia von Khr: was he self taught as well?

[10:37] Oona Riaxik: Greene is very underappreciated in his contributions to the war

[10:38] Oona Riaxik: General Arnold is not educated and is quixotic

[10:38] Diogeneia von Khr: ah but he is still one of their best commanders

[10:38] Oona Riaxik: this makes him a great leader under pressure but not stable

[10:39] Diogeneia von Khr: it was he who was actually responsible for the victory called Saratoga

[10:39] Oona Riaxik: his motivations are unclear and it is worrisome especially now he is married to a loyalist

[10:39] Diogeneia von Khr: which of course convinced the French that it would be worth while to join the Americans as allies

[10:39] Diogeneia von Khr: but then there are of course other resources they have drawn on

[10:39] Diogeneia von Khr: the foreign volunteers

[10:40] Diogeneia von Khr: such as the Vicente's friend Herr Lafayette

[10:40] Diogeneia von Khr: and the Prussian Feldwebel who has taught the Americans drill

[10:40] Oona Riaxik: Poor Lafayette! He is so eager! but so beloved by Washington that the General does not want him in any danger!

[10:42] Sere Timeless: What do we know of General Washington's strategy for driving the British army from North America?

[10:43] Diogeneia von Khr: at present it is unlikely they will be able to drive them out of New York

[10:43] Diogeneia von Khr: it is too well defended

[10:44] Oona Riaxik: he will have to focus in the southern arena

[10:44] Ernst Osterham: He is a man of long range plans and patience, however

[10:44] Diogeneia von Khr: but if they can isolate other British forces in the countryside and destroy them piecemeal

[10:44] Ernst Osterham: Too many times there have been close escapes for him

[10:45] Aldo Stern: to a great extent, the primary thing that the General Washington must do is to keep an army in the field...even if it is small at times...if he can keep the war going...the British people and parliament will tire of it, no?

[10:46] Sere Timeless: And it will be costly to the British to maintain an army so far away.

[10:46] Diogeneia von Khr: ja, and they have other colonies that are now threatened by the French...

[10:47] Diogeneia von Khr: but let us return to the issue of the native people in this war...

[10:47] Diogeneia von Khr: one of the reasons that the colonists decided to pursue independence, rather than a reconciliation with the homeland, was the use of native warriors as allies by the British in attempting to put down the rebellion

[10:49] Sere Timeless: It is interesting that the British are developing alliances with the natives. Slightly over a decade ago the British were fighting in North America against the French who were allied with the Indians.

[10:49] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: The British were allied with their own Indians at the time too

[10:49] Diogeneia von Khr: yes that is true

[10:50] Diogeneia von Khr: the natives have their own set of traditional conflicts and alliances...

[10:50] Diogeneia von Khr: one can argue that they use European colonial wars as an opportunity to go after their traditional native enemies

[10:50] Prospero Pastorelli: Do you think that the American colonials will have a backlash against the natives if the colonials win?

[10:51] Aldo Stern: ah Prospero, the Colonists will certainly wish to push the natives off their lands beyond the mountains in the Ohio country if they win

[10:51] Oona Riaxik: I would think that extreme although it is a major benefit for engaging in a war over many other issues - a very compelling additive

[10:52] Oona Riaxik: clearly the natives cannot be trusted, their motivation is totally unclear to the Europeans and they change sides

[10:52] Oona Riaxik: they will be too much of a threat to either party who wins

[10:52] Diogeneia von Khr: ja, Professor, that is why many of the colonists were angry with the British government was that it was trying to keep them out of the indian lands to the west

[10:53] Oona Riaxik: is that enough in its own right to rebel?

[10:53] Diogeneia von Khr: what of the ethics of using natives to raid settlements?

[10:53] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Unfortunately - the colonists and the British are not interested in working with the natives like France was. The British are rather keen on slaughtering them

[10:54] Fiorino Pera: I hear you, Viscomte. I have heard the same criticism.

[10:54] Diogeneia von Khr: I trust you noted that in the readings I supplied there was still a level of honor and civilized behavior displayed by the American and european combatants

[10:54] Diogeneia von Khr: as when Baroness Riedesel and her family were treated so kindly after Burgoyne's surrender

[10:55] Diogeneia von Khr: well..at least for officers..there is decent treatment...

[10:55] Diogeneia von Khr: but such is not so in native style warfare

[10:55] Aldo Stern: Baronessa, warfare by it's nature is uncivilized no matter how much we may like to pretend otherwise

[10:56] Aldo Stern: You may argue that a people will do what they must do to end a conflict as quickly as possible

[10:56] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: It is true that the natives often don't understand the meaning of surrender

[10:56] Jean Andr d'Ambleville giggles

[10:56] Fiorino Pera: Yes, we live in the Land of Westphalia. That should tell us something about incivility of war.

[10:56] Aldo Stern: and as for chivalry and decent treatment of prisoners...

[10:57] Aldo Stern: the officers and their wives may be get wine and smoked tongue

[10:57] Ernst Osterham: Yet notice the complaint of the British of the treatment of their officers

[10:57] Aldo Stern: but the enlisted soldiers and sailors are consigned to prison hulks

[10:57] Ernst Osterham: And the high casualties they take due to being specifically targeted

[10:58] Diogeneia von Khr: *sighs* both sides do that

[10:58] Diogeneia von Khr: the Americans have their riflemen

[10:59] Diogeneia von Khr: the British have the German jaegers with their rifles

[11:00] Diogeneia von Khr: you know...that is why we have the ensigns ...or faeneriche to carry the flags

[11:00] Diogeneia von Khr: they are the most visible target

[11:00] Diogeneia von Khr: so you give the flag to the youngest most expendable officers to carry

[11:01] Ernst Osterham: Perhaps some in the British army have an overdeveloped sense of fair play

[11:02] Oona Riaxik: How so?

[11:02] Aldo Stern: war is institutionalized brutality...it is best if we do not pretend it is anything else

[11:02] Ernst Osterham: One had written that he felt his officers were taking excessive fire relative to the men

[11:02] Prospero Pastorelli: Thank you for that, Professor

[11:02] Ernst Osterham: I believe it was a few years ago, in 75 or 76 perhaps?

[11:03] Oona Riaxik: naturally the way the British army is organized and so far from home, depleting the ranks will be the best advantage for the colonists

[11:03] Oona Riaxik: they were highly targeted!

[11:03] Oona Riaxik: and this helped the ragtag army stay in the war so long

[11:04] Oona Riaxik: the old european "civilized" warfare met its end in this new wilderness

[11:04] Diogeneia von Khr: *coughs* For some officers the best to way to win a battle is make sure the guy who is in charge stays in charge...

[11:05] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: There may be rules in war, and it may be a game to many gentlemen...but at the end of the day someone is getting their head blown off

[11:05] Diogeneia von Khr: if some yankee rifleman had shot Burgoyne he would have been doing the British a big favor

[11:05] Oona Riaxik: it is a good point

[11:05] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: War can be necessary at times, but it still is an ugly, ugly affair

[11:05] Oona Riaxik: know thy foe

[11:06] Diogeneia von Khr: so..what do you think the outcome will be?

[11:06] Oona Riaxik: if your adversary is an incompetent, let him hang himself

[11:06] Diogeneia von Khr: the British keep defeating the American army more often than they are beaten

[11:06] Diogeneia von Khr: but those "victories" are so often very costly

[11:06] Oona Riaxik: it is hard to say, but without control of the south, the colonists really wont stand a chance unless a French miracle happens

[11:06] Diogeneia von Khr: they lose more than the Americans do

[11:07] Diogeneia von Khr: the Americans 'rise again to fight again" as Herr Greene said

[11:07] Diogeneia von Khr: they lost a city for a while...

[11:07] Diogeneia von Khr: then they gain it back

[11:08] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Remember that Britain has a parliament, and that the Whigs do not support this war. It is only a matter of time until parliament cuts off the Kings purse. He cannot fight the colonists forever

[11:08] Diogeneia von Khr: the British cannot occupy everything in force, especially when they must send forces to fight the French in the West Indies and elsewhere...

[11:09] Ernst Osterham nods

[11:09] Diogeneia von Khr: yes, Herr Vicomte--that is exactly true

[11:09] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: The colonists just have to hold out long enough and then it is their victory

[11:09] Ernst Osterham: It is their war to lose

[11:10] Diogeneia von Khr: and the Americans, they may not have a great navy but they are very good at commerce raiding

[11:10] Diogeneia von Khr: the war will get expensive for the British businessman

[11:11] Aldo Stern: so Baronessa

[11:11] Aldo Stern: do you think your brother, the officer of jaegers, will be sent home soon?

[11:12] Diogeneia von Khr: *shrugs* actually last time he wrote to me, he said he was thinking of staying in America, regardless if the colonists win

[11:12] Diogeneia von Khr: you know I have another brother..the one who had been a jesuit

[11:12] Diogeneia von Khr: he is now a trader among the natives, and he likes it there very much

[11:13] Diogeneia von Khr: *laughs* maybe I should go there too!

[11:14] Aldo Stern: well ladies and gentlemen

[11:14] Oona Riaxik: Perhaps! I hear many of the women are fighters, too!

[11:14] Aldo Stern: first I would like to say that his past hour has flown by

[11:14] Aldo Stern: we are near the time we expect to finish

[11:14] Fiorino nods

[11:15] Aldo Stern: I would open up for additional comments or final questions?

[11:16] Oona Riaxik: perhaps we could consider what will happen in the event of a British victory

[11:16] Ernst Osterham: An interesting question

[11:16] Diogeneia von Khr: ja very interesting

[11:16] Oona Riaxik: what repercussions for the rebellious colonists?

[11:16] Oona Riaxik: and Europe

[11:17] Diogeneia von Khr: their leaders will no doubt have to flee

[11:17] Diogeneia von Khr: perhaps would they be welcomed in France, Herr Vicomte?

[11:17] Ernst Osterham: There will be reprisals, but I wonder how severe? I can't imagine the King or parliament would react like a rebellion of slaves

[11:17] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: I am sure, although France does not see defeat as an outcome at this time

[11:17] Oona Riaxik: or perhaps they will expand west.

[11:18] Oona Riaxik: with the colonists in control, the British could send their troops to the Indies, securing the west and

[11:18] Oona Riaxik: a monopoly in western trading

[11:18] Sere Timeless: There are French territories to the west of the Mississippi are there not?

[11:19] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Not anymore

[11:19] Oona Riaxik: while imposing heavy fines on colonist to repay the war

[11:19] Aldo Stern: the Americans? they could also go to the Spanish held lands beyond the great river

[11:19] Prospero Pastorelli: But are not the British growing in Asia? Will they not seek to expand there?

[11:20] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: France has already been largely defeated in India

[11:20] Diogeneia von Khr: hmmmm

[11:21] Diogeneia von Khr: perhaps one group that would benefit if the colonists are defeated

[11:21] Diogeneia von Khr: that would be the north American indians

[11:21] Oona Riaxik: perhaps, as long as they are willing to live beyond the lands Britain wants for itself

[11:22] Diogeneia von Khr: as the British would undoubtedly maintain the limits keeping settlers out of the Ohio country

[11:22] Oona Riaxik: the British have no respect for these like the French do

[11:22] Sere Timeless: You do not think that the British would be just as ruthless as the colonists in pushing the natives out of lands that held promise of generating wealth?

[11:22] Oona Riaxik: and would wish to remove them as future potential allies

[11:22] Diogeneia von Khr: that relationship changed after Pontiac's war

[11:22] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Without France or Spain, the indians are in a lose-lose situation

[11:23] Diogeneia von Khr: after the seven years war, the indians very nearly threw the British out of the western lands

[11:23] Fiorino Pera: Yes, I have heard this too.

[11:23] Oona Riaxik: I think the colonists, who are British subjects, will be just as bad as the British if they were - however, they have some alliances with the indians in this war that might be of benefit to the natives

[11:23] Diogeneia von Khr: it was a close enough thing that the British had agreed to the limits to settlement and were beginning to take on more of the role formerly played by the French

[11:23] Oona Riaxik: yes, t he natives do not look like they will survive either outcome well

[11:25] Diogeneia von Khr: I respectfully disagree Fraulein....

[11:25] Diogeneia von Khr: if the British win, their indian allies will be in a fairly powerful bargaining position

[11:25] Oona Riaxik: yes you mentioned you think the natives will fare well id a British victory is had..

[11:26] Diogeneia von Khr: warfare is their way of life...they will happily fight the British if they do not retain control of the interior lands

[11:26] Oona Riaxik: ah I don't believe the English feel much sense of duty to those alliances, which are still fewer and more tenuous than the colonists

[11:27] Prospero Pastorelli: Pity that we have not English here. It would be interesting to hear from them.

[11:27] Diogeneia von Khr: yes

[11:27] Diogeneia von Khr: yes it would

[11:28] Sere Timeless: I shall have to tell Sir Geoffrey that his presence was missed this morning.

[11:28] Diogeneia von Khr: his perspective would have been useful as an English banker

[11:29] Oona Riaxik: well we spoke more of strategy today perhaps another discussion on the economics of the situation would be interesting?

[11:29] Diogeneia von Khr: though for that matter, Miss Timeless...I know you have been away from England for some time...may I ask what is your perspective

[11:30] Sere Timeless: Well this whole American uprising has been a bloody nuisance.

[11:30] Sere Timeless: It has, as you mentioned earlier, disrupted a great deal of British trade which is the bread and butter of the banking business.

[11:31] Sere Timeless: Although we have found it profitable to make loans to the continental royalty from time to time.

[11:32] Diogeneia von Khr: always needing money they are, ja?

[11:32] Sere Timeless: They always have to find a way to pay their armies

[11:33] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: mon cousine!

[11:33] Oona Riaxik: bonjour aimee

[11:33] Diogeneia von Khr: that is after all one of the factors in the Margraf of Ansbach-Bayreuth regarding his relationship with the British monarchy...

[11:33] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny curtsies

[11:33] Sere Timeless looks around for another chair.

[11:33] Diogeneia von Khr: yes it is about honor and allegiance

[11:33] Diogeneia von Khr: but he is also getting paid by the British

[11:34] Diogeneia von Khr: it is reducing his debts substantially

[11:34] Diogeneia von Khr: ah guten tag Fraulein

[11:34] Sere Timeless: Please have a seat Signora

[11:34] Diogeneia von Khr: but may I ask Herr Vicomte, speaking of continental royalty and their expenditures...

[11:35] Diogeneia von Khr: is this war not using up a great deal of the French King's resources?

[11:35] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Every war does for each country. Both France and Britain have amassed a great deal of debt fighting this.

[11:36] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: The only problem is that the interest in France is much higher.

[11:36] Diogeneia von Khr: is the situation potentially ruinous for France?

[11:37] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: We have seen worse before. In the War of the Spanish Succession, gold furniture in Versailles had to be melted down in order to pay for debts.

[11:37] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: Ruinous was little, the complete French economy almost collapse

[11:38] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Us aristocrats have much personal wealth, but the treasury is broke and the economy is stagnant

[11:39] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: don't let the appearance fool you, my cousin, the nobles have to ask for credit with the bourgeoisies to be able to keep the luxury life style that Versailles demands

[11:39] Diogeneia von Khr: Himmel! Does this not greatly concern you?

[11:40] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: No, because after the war the situation can be solved with finance reform

[11:40] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Just like Cardinal Fleury solved the financial problems of Louis XV's early reign

[11:40] Aldo Stern: but what if the war drags on for a number of years more? might it be too late?

[11:41] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: besides, our people is on the streets making riots for a piece of bread

[11:41] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: By that time Britain would of pulled out because of the same financial problems

[11:41] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Their parliament is much more keen on controlling the crown's expenditures

[11:43] Diogeneia von Khr: *glances at the fraulein de Chiverny and notices what seems to be great concern on her face*

[11:43] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: I know that the debt will be a concern once the war is over. But this is unrelated to foreign policy, it has to do with our own internal problems

[11:43] Ernst Osterham follows her gaze

[11:44] Diogeneia von Khr: Fraulein de Chiverny, I observe by your expression that perhaps you do not share the Vicomte's confidence?

[11:45] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: I had to agree with you on that part, Baronessa von Kuhr

[11:45] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: Imagine this situation: we go on war, and the other country, the one we try to help, reach victory

[11:46] Diogeneia von Khr: *thinks that perhaps she needs to stop smoking as it apparently is making her voice seem too mannish*

[11:46] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: but what would be if the helper country is on economic crisis for that war?

[11:47] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Well a giant deficit followed by a giant debt

[11:47] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny looks at her mistake and blushes

[11:47] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: and what we can do to solve that debt?

[11:48] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Reform the tax system

[11:48] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: one of two scenarios are possible: an increase on taxes, or a decrease on public expenses

[11:48] Prospero Pastorelli: Is this not how the war in America started? Taxes?

[11:48] Diogeneia von Khr: do you think your king hopes also to get some new colonies from this war, perhaps?

[11:48] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Our system of revenue is outdated

[11:49] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Yes, the British had a huge debt and raised the taxes on the colonists. I suggest not raising the taxes on our peasants but on the clergy and aristocrats

[11:49] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: America is looking for freedom, on my journeys to New Spain I could see that the population starts to look for independence

[11:49] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: In France the 1st and 2nd estate pay no taxes

[11:50] Diogeneia von Khr: *removes her pipe, taps out the ashes and puts it away*

[11:50] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: and you do believed they would pay now? they wont let that happen, so, the taxes will be harder for the 3rd state

[11:50] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: If we do not reform the system the economy will collapse

[11:50] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: We have reformed it before

[11:50] Prospero Pastorelli: Good luck, Signor Viscomte.

[11:51] Ernst Osterham sets down his cup, stands and bows slowly with a smile, "If you will pardon me, I have a prior appointment"

[11:51] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Everyone has to compromise, and give up on some things and we will make it

[11:51] Prospero Pastorelli: Perhaps you as a nobleman can lead the way.

[11:51] Aldo Stern: of course sir, thank you for joining us

[11:51] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Au revoir, Monsieur

[11:51] Fiorino Pera: Good by, Signor Osterham

[11:51] Ernst Osterham: Most illuminating

[11:51] Diogeneia von Khr: Auf wiedersehen

[11:51] Sere Timeless: Thank you for joining the discussion signor

[11:52] Oona Riaxik: au revoir, Ernst

[11:52] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: I will support any reform proposed by His Majesty's finance minister but it is none of my business to lead the way

[11:52] Aldo Stern: but Signorina de Chiverny, you were saying that many of the noble class are deeply in debt already just to pay their expenses that go with the life of a courtier...

[11:53] Aldo Stern: can they afford new taxes any more than the working people?

[11:53] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: If they cut down on their court expenses they could pay

[11:53] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: It is a simple matter of responsibility

[11:54] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny thinks deeply for a couple of seconds "If I had to give you the reason, monsieur"

[11:54] Aldo Stern: do you think they will be willing to take the responsible course?

[11:54] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: It would be hard for them, but is certainly true that France needs resources

[11:55] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: I think so if faced with the possibility of economic collapse

[11:55] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: maybe a system of donations would work

[11:55] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: or one tribute, even if is really small, would be a great aid

[11:55] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: If the nobility and clergy reject reform they know what the consequences will be

[11:55] Diogeneia von Khr: and what is that?

[11:56] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: A financial depression I would think

[11:56] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Prices and interest would become extremely high

[11:57] Aria Vyper: excuse me everyone, but I must go - totally enjoyed the conversation - I have learned a lot

[11:57] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: And certainly the poor would starve

[11:57] Aria Vyper: good day all

[11:57] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: they are already high, one depression would lead to chaos

[11:57] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Bonsoir Madame

[11:57] Fiorino Pera: Good bye Principessa

[11:57] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: au revoir Madame

[11:57] Aria Vyper: smiles as I depart

[11:58] Aldo Stern: arrividerci Donna Ariella

[11:58] Oona Riaxik: Arriverdercia, siga Viper

[11:59] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: In the case of this lack of compromise and depression I can see no other alternative than leaving my post and attending to my personal inheritance and family

[11:59] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: But that would be a sad day for France

[11:59] Fiorino Pera: What is your post, Signor Visconte?

[11:59] Sere Timeless: It would be a sad day indeed, Vicomte.

[12:00] Diogeneia von Khr: it would yes,

[12:00] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: I attend to His Majesty at Versailles

[12:00] Fiorino Pera: Ah, I understand.

[12:00] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny looks amazed at her cousin

[12:01] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: As all courtiers do. But we would have to fend for ourselves if the economy collapsed

[12:01] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Maybe even flee the country

[12:01] Rico Millefiori: With your permission, signori, I must take my leave.

[12:01] Rico bow to the assembled nobles

[12:01] Jean Andr d'Ambleville nods

[12:02] Jean Andr d'Ambleville: Bonsoir Monsieur

[12:02] Sere Timeless: We are pleased you were able to join us, Rico

[12:02] Diogeneia von Khr: thank you for coming

[12:02] Rico waves to his fellow apprentices

[12:02] Aldo Stern: Rico, I am pleased you came

[12:02] Rico Millefiori: It was a pleasure, Baronessa.

[12:02] Rico Millefiori: Good evening, Signor Professore

[12:02] Aldo Stern: I trust you will join us again in the future?

[12:02] Sere Timeless: Might it make sense to end the salon for today and take up our discussion another day?

[12:02] Rico Millefiori: I do hope so.

[12:02] Oona Riaxik: Goodbye Rico

[12:03] Fiorino Pera: ciao Rico bello mio

[12:03] Diogeneia von Khr: Fraulein Sere, I think we have already moved well beyond the original discussion

[12:04] Diogeneia von Khr: and which to thank all for attending and taking part

[12:04] Diogeneia von Khr: I myself will sit and be happy to talk with anyone who wished to continue conversation on any topic

[12:04] Oona Riaxik: thank you for hosting such an interesting and lively discussion

[12:04] Marie-Elisabeth de Chiverny: Is a pleasure to attend this conversations

[12:04] Sere Timeless: If anyone has suggestions for future salon topics please forward them to Professor Stern or the Baronessa.

updated by @aldo-stern: 06 Oct 2016 06:08:20AM

Views on Slavery in the Age of Reason - discussion transcript

Communty News & Events

the readings:

Man is born free, yet everywhere is in chains.
- Jean Jacques Rousseau

*********

Slavery, properly so called, is the establishment of a right which gives to one man such a power over another as renders him absolute master of his life and fortune. The state of slavery is in its own nature bad. It is neither useful to the master nor to the slave; not to the slave, because he can do nothing through a motive of virtue; nor to the master, because by having an unlimited authority over his slaves he insensibly accustoms himself to the want of all moral virtues, and thence becomes fierce, hasty, severe, choleric, voluptuous, and cruel. ... where it is of the utmost importance that human nature should not be debased or dispirited, there ought to be no slavery. In democracies, where they are all upon equality; and in aristocracies, where the laws ought to use their utmost endeavors to procure as great an equality as the nature of the government will permit, slavery is contrary to the spirit of the constitution: it only contributes to give a power and luxury to the citizens which they ought not to have.

from the The Spirit of the Laws, 1748, Charles de Montesquieu

**************

...he who attempts to get another man into his absolute power does thereby put himself into a state of war with him; it being to be understood as a declaration of a design upon his life. For I have reason to conclude that he who would get me into his power without my consent would use me as he pleased when he had got me there, and destroy me too when he had a fancy to it; for nobody can desire to have me in his absolute power unless it be to compel me by force to that which is against the right of my freedom - i.e. make me a slave. To be free from such force is the only security of my preservation, and reason bids me look on him as an enemy to my preservation who would take away that freedom which is the fence to it; so that he who makes an attempt to enslave me thereby puts himself into a state of war with me.

Two Treatises on Government (1680-1690), Book II, of the State of War, John Locke

******************

After leaving Eldorado, Candide and Cacambo reach the Dutch colony of Surinam...

As they drew near to the town, they came on a Negro lying on the ground half-naked, which in his case meant in half a pair of short denim breeches. The poor man was missing his left leg and his right hand.

"My God!" said Candide..., "what are you doing lying here, my friend, in this dreadful state?"
"I'm waiting for my master, Mr. van der Hartbargin, the well-known trader," replied the Negro.

"And is it Mr. van der Hartbargin," said Candide, "who has treated you like this?"

"Yes, sir," said the Negro, "it is the custom. We are given one pair of short denim breeches twice a year, and that's all we have to wear. When we're working at the sugar-mill and catch our finger in the grinding-wheel, they cut off our hand. When we try to run away, they cut off a leg. I have been in both these situations. This is the price you pay for the sugar you eat in Europe. However, when my mother sold me...she said to me: 'My dear child, bless our fetishes, worship them always, they will bring you a happy life. You have the honour of being a slave to our lords and masters the Whites and, by so being, you are making your father's and mother's fortune.' Alas! I don't know if I made their fortune, but they didn't make mine. Dogs, monkeys, parrots, they're all a thousand times less wretched than we are. The Dutch fetishes who converted me tell me every Sunday that we are all the sons of Adam, Whites and Blacks alike. I'm no genealogist, but if these preachers are right, we are all cousins born of first cousins. Well, you will grant me that you can't treat a relative much worse than this."

- "Candide, or the Optomist," - Voltaire

**************

the discussion:

[19:54] Oona Riaxik: Buona sera!
[19:54] Aldo Stern: ah bona sera signorina
[19:54] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): good evening
[19:55] Aldo Stern: won't please join us?
[19:55] Oona Riaxik: It is nice to see you again, mme. Kuhr.
[19:55] Oona Riaxik: A pleasure to meet you, M. Stern
[19:55] Oona Riaxik: Grazie
[19:56] Aldo Stern: I am gratifed that you came to join us tonight
[19:56] Aldo Stern: *signals for more coffee to be brought*
[19:57] Oona Riaxik: I am afraid I did not get to prepare as much as i would have liked
[19:57] Oona Riaxik: (at all)!
[19:58] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): preparation is not so essential--it is the process of thinking and asking questions, that is necessary
[19:58] Aldo Stern: exactly
[19:58] Oona Riaxik: d'accord
[19:58] Aldo Stern: I have shared a few readings in advance to help facilitate the conversation
[19:59] Aldo Stern: did you get them Signorina Oona?
[19:59] Oona Riaxik: yes, very good selections
[19:59] Oona Riaxik: si
[19:59] Aldo Stern: excellent
[19:59] Oona Riaxik: I had hoped to bring some passages form Gastavus Vassa with me
[20:00] Oona Riaxik: but perhaps I can find them later...
[20:01] Aldo Stern: ah, the african man who had been a slave and has written some of his life , no?
[20:01] Oona Riaxik: yes, he is also known as Ouladah Equiano
[20:02] Oona Riaxik: a latin variation of his original name
[20:03] Oona Riaxik: It is compelling to have the voice of a former slave added to the white reflection of their wretched laws
[20:04] Aldo Stern: well i think you can argue that it is very important for such narratives to be written and published as it reminds people that the enslaved are after all human beings as much as any of us
[20:05] Oona Riaxik: precisely and when they see an accomplished and learned african
[20:05] Oona Riaxik: they cannot continue to deny his equality
[20:05] Oona Riaxik: and they cannot doubt the veracity of his tale
[20:06] Oona Riaxik: however it is the responsibility of "men" of reason to use it and take responsibility for what we have begun
[20:06] Oona Riaxik: for no african became a slave of his own volition[20:06] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): yet, even when we see that...it does not always change how we all choose to act...after all...do we all agree that the holding of slaves is wrong?
[20:06] Oona Riaxik: we do agree
[20:07] Aldo Stern: yes, of course...just as I would not wish to be a slave, neither would I wish to be a slave owner
[20:07] Oona Riaxik: but we are of a rare mind in our society
[20:07] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): *smiles sadly* yes, and there is the fact we have on the table before us, the bowl of sugar...
[20:08] Oona Riaxik: and coffee from the east
[20:08] Aldo Stern: yes..no doubt the product of the work of enslaved laborers in Surinam, or Jamaica, perhaps?
[20:08] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the fact is, many think...or know it to be wrong
[20:09] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but see no way around the economic issue
[20:09] Aldo Stern: hmmm the economics of it...
[20:10] Aldo Stern: which is why we can have countries like England and France which do not permit the holding of slaves in their homelands, but in the colonies, the economic basis for the plantation system is slave labor
[20:10] Oona Riaxik: England has only recently stopped the holding of slaves by law
[20:11] Oona Riaxik: they set the example for the colonies
[20:11] Oona Riaxik: and now the colonies cannot be controlled
[20:11] Aldo Stern: yes...and that law did not affect the colonies
[20:11] Aldo Stern: it is interesting, Lord Mansfield, the chief justice...
[20:11] Aldo Stern: while he certainly considered slavery odious
[20:12] Aldo Stern: he was very concerned in hearing that case, that it would have a terrible affect on his nation's economy if slavery was stopped completely
[20:13] Oona Riaxik: yes the english have made a convenient excuse for themselves...
[20:13] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): we have the very mixed feelings about such things, ja?
[20:13] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): we wish to be moral
[20:13] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): to do the right thing
[20:13] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but neither do we wish to hurt our countrymen
[20:13] Oona Riaxik: the courts can justify themselves by saying that they are doing the right by allowing the nation to prosper
[20:13] Aldo Stern: and for that matter everyone does not agree on the morality of it
[20:14] Oona Riaxik: as long as it in place, it is already too late seems to be the attitude... which begs the question then
[20:14] Oona Riaxik: that if slavery is to continue, is it not better to be a slaveowner and treat as many as humanely as possible?
[20:14] Aldo Stern: we have thinkers like Locke and Rousseau who say that it is against natural law for one man to abridge another's freedom
[20:15] Aldo Stern: yet other philosphers say that individual rights are not to be violated..and that includes his right to his property...
[20:15] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ah.,.,.and the slave is seen as the property, ja?
[20:15] Aldo Stern: exactly
[20:15] Oona Riaxik: thery are many in the British colonies like George Washington who do not agree but own slaves... same questions as Mansfield
[20:15] Oona Riaxik: we would first have to establish that a person can be property according to natural rights
[20:15] Oona Riaxik: but I dont think we can
[20:16] Aldo Stern: I certainly think Locke and Rousseau would agree with you on that
[20:17] Oona Riaxik: well if all individuals have rights, then individuals who are considered property also have rights
[20:17] Aldo Stern: but does it come down to our self interests shaping our understanding of what is right...
[20:17] Oona Riaxik: therefore this line of thinking is flawed
[20:17] Oona Riaxik: if the moral code is so individual, it cannot be a standard for anyone
[20:18] Aldo Stern: for example...in the last several centuries, the Jesuits have fought very hard in certain places to end the enslavement of the indians, the natives of the americas, such as the Guarani in the Aamzonian wilderness
[20:18] Aldo Stern: but in order to replace the indian laborers, the plantation owners turned to black slaves from africa
[20:18] Oona Riaxik: self-interest cannot be the only determinant of a moral code
[20:18] Oona Riaxik: as the Baronessa mentioned earlier, there is the good of the whole to be considered
[20:19] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but are the Africans not men as much as the indians are?
[20:19] Aldo Stern: yes...the Jesuits call them "children of Adam" deserving of decent treatment...
[20:20] Aldo Stern: yet in this century, before the suppression of the Order, there were Jesuit-owned plantations using africans as slave laborers
[20:20] Oona Riaxik: so our moral code should dictate we care for others as well as property - by either argument, we have a duty to care for the slaves
[20:20] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): not so consistent we are
[20:22] Aldo Stern: no Baronessa, we are not very consistent at all
[20:22] Oona Riaxik: an unhealthy self-interest leads to hypocrisy
[20:23] Oona Riaxik: we do a disservice to our own kind as well
[20:23] Aldo Stern: yes Signorina Oona, that is true...
[20:23] Oona Riaxik: as we displace workers by bringing in cheap labor
[20:24] Oona Riaxik: our poor are getting poorer while work is assigned to these slaves
[20:24] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): hmph but the plantation owners will tell you that the european workers are not suited to the heat and hard work of a sugar plantation like the Africans are...
[20:25] Oona Riaxik: oui but this argument does not justify slavery
[20:25] Oona Riaxik: then have free black men work for you with pay
[20:25] Oona Riaxik: the point is they will not do this work
[20:25] Oona Riaxik: if they have a choice because the work itself is barbaric
[20:26] Aldo Stern: no, neither would they wish to leave their homelands in africa for that matter
[20:26] Oona Riaxik: only by decreasing demand for these commodities can we change this - as we said in the beginning - it is all about economics
[20:27] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): perhaps...but still at the very heart of it, we have to say no, this is wrong...
[20:27] Oona Riaxik: they would not wish to leave africa certainly but many of the slaves we take form there are already slaves in africa
[20:27] Oona Riaxik: if they have no home to return to,
[20:27] Oona Riaxik: they can be freemen working here
[20:27] Oona Riaxik: but slave owners will not pay for what they can get for free
[20:27] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): you would think people would see things differently when they reflect on the fact that white Christian europeans are enslaved by the thousands in north africa
[20:28] Oona Riaxik: yes Baronessa, such a shame and a disgrace
[20:28] Aldo Stern: hmmm a good point Baronessa, if people think about it, they would realize that no one happily accepts slavery
[20:29] Aldo Stern: otherwise, there would not be slave rebellions
[20:29] Aldo Stern: like the big uprising of christian slaves in Algiers in 1763...
[20:29] Oona Riaxik: the problem with the africans is deeper in that they are not even considered people
[20:30] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ja Fraulein Oona, it only works in your mind if you convince yourself that they are NOT people you are enslaving...
[20:30] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but are instead some kind of lesser being
[20:31] Aldo Stern: which brings us back to why it is so important for people to read the slave narratives...
[20:31] Oona Riaxik: then it is education that defines a mans worth?
[20:31] Oona Riaxik: whites treat Equiano as an equal with rights because he is educated
[20:32] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the thing is, of course...there is slavery that hangs on in Europe...though it is not called slavery
[20:32] Aldo Stern: ah yes..the serfdom in Russia and other lands inthe east
[20:32] Oona Riaxik: oui
[20:32] Aldo Stern: the hereditary coal workers in Scotland
[20:33] Oona Riaxik: again, an uneducated population being called lesser for their lack of WE have not provided for them
[20:33] Oona Riaxik: by keeping the downtrodden down, we dehumanize them to justify our objectrivity of their lives
[20:33] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): hmmph I also see sometimes the well-born, who treat their paid servants as if they were slaves...
[20:34] Oona Riaxik: same idea
[20:34] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): Some people they are simply trained in the ways of being mean
[20:35] Oona Riaxik: yes, but we have institutionalized a whole way of being mean, certified it as ok because it is legal
[20:35] Aldo Stern: there are some who argue it is simply the way of the world...
[20:36] Oona Riaxik: and worse in some countries, it is illegal, but they profit from it in colonies -
[20:36] Oona Riaxik: hypocrisy at its finest[20:36] Aldo Stern: there are those who think that Voltaire thought that way...
[20:36] Aldo Stern: that the world is cruel and imperfect...and we must simply accept that...but I think they misunderstood what he was trying to say in works like Candide
[20:36] Oona Riaxik: yes?
[20:37] Aldo Stern: yes...if you read the exchange that Candide has with the crippled slave in Surinam...
[20:37] Aldo Stern: it is sarcasm and irony that he is using...
[20:38] Aldo Stern: people do not always understand irony very well
[20:38] Oona Riaxik: very true
[20:38] Aldo Stern: in that sense I think Voltaire's wit worked against his own message
[20:39] Aldo Stern: in that case about the horrors and injustice of slavery
[20:39] Aldo Stern: and the hypocrisy of religion being used to justify slavery
[20:40] Oona Riaxik: Voltaire is saying that religion itself is part of the charade
[20:40] Aldo Stern: yes absolutely
[20:41] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): hmph I am thinking Herr Voltaire is perhaps more upset about the religious hypocrisy than the tragedy and injustice of the slavery
[20:41] Oona Riaxik: good point... that may be
[20:41] Aldo Stern: perhaps....and he doesn't really offer a solution....
[20:41] Aldo Stern: so then what is the solution?
[20:43] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): hah maybe the solution is for the slave owners to go be a slave of the barbary corsairs for a while..then I am thinking they won't think enslavement is so very benign
[20:43] Oona Riaxik: splendid idea
[20:44] Oona Riaxik: but who will make the rum?
[20:44] Oona Riaxik: the sugar is so important
[20:44] Oona Riaxik: and certain navies could not function without rum!
[20:45] Aldo Stern: we are trapped by such thinking...
[20:45] Oona Riaxik: we can sponsor more science? improve our laws...
[20:45] Oona Riaxik: but slavery will continue as long as it is profitable
[20:45] Aldo Stern: you know Rousseau said we are everywhere in chains...
[20:45] Aldo Stern: perhaps he did not mean just in terms of literal slavery
[20:46] Aldo Stern: but that we are ALL enslaved...but our narrow thinking...
[20:46] Oona Riaxik: i see...
[20:46] Aldo Stern: by our self interest
[20:46] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the slave owner is in some ways a prisoner too?
[20:47] Oona Riaxik: but how can a man moved only by money make a moral decision for the better of another? he cannot
[20:47] Oona Riaxik: this man cannot ever learn that he has imprisoned himself - he is not capable
[20:47] Oona Riaxik: when greed obscures his reason
[20:48] Aldo Stern: yes you can argue that they are trapped by ignorance and greed
[20:48] Aldo Stern: but also by our greed...for example, we like to eat sugar...
[20:48] Aldo Stern: but we wish to pay less for it
[20:48] Aldo Stern: one man uses slaves to harvest and mill his sugar cane...
[20:49] Aldo Stern: so he sells it for less than the next plantation owner...
[20:49] Aldo Stern: who then says, "oh I must cut my costs too"...and he buys the slaves to do the work as well...
[20:49] Aldo Stern: so he can sell sugar as cheap as the first fellow
[20:50] Aldo Stern: because WE do not wish to pay so much for sweetening our coffee
[20:50] Oona Riaxik: but if it is not sugar, it will be some other commodity used to exploit the wretches... for we have sanctioned slavery
[20:50] Oona Riaxik: and made it wholesome by making it the base of our economic pillar
[20:50] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): then that structure
[20:51] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the house built with such pillars..must be torn down, no?
[20:51] Oona Riaxik: yes!
[20:51] Oona Riaxik: and what will replace it?
[20:52] Aldo Stern: a good question
[20:52] Oona Riaxik: who will be willing to take the fall? no one
[20:52] Oona Riaxik: and for what, for people that are already declared objects?
[20:52] Aldo Stern: I would have said that the ideals of men like those who have written the american declaration of independence were on the right path
[20:52] Aldo Stern: but...
[20:52] Aldo Stern: it makes no sense...you look at Signor Jefferson
[20:53] Aldo Stern: who wrote these great words, "all men are created equal"
[20:53] Aldo Stern: yet he himself is an owner of slaves
[20:53] Oona Riaxik: he has a limited definition for MEN
[20:53] Oona Riaxik: he means only landowners
[20:54] Aldo Stern: *sighs*
[20:54] Aldo Stern: it is a shame
[20:54] Oona Riaxik: many colonists own slaves who do not agree with it
[20:54] Oona Riaxik: but perhaps they feel they can take on this issue when their country is more stable
[20:55] Oona Riaxik: that to be good a good a slaveowner is better than to leave them in the hands of cruel owners
[20:55] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): perhaps
[20:56] Aldo Stern: *looks out over the beautiful sea*
[20:56] Aldo Stern: you know...that is a very good question...
[20:57] Aldo Stern: technically there is no slavery around here...
[20:57] Aldo Stern: but the poorest of the peasantry...
[20:57] Aldo Stern: they have lives as hard and grim as a slave on a plantation
[20:58] Aldo Stern: they were freed from feudalism, but they are still unable to rise and live well
[20:58] Aldo Stern: something else will have to change...
[20:58] Aldo Stern: it is not simply enough to have liberty
[20:58] Aldo Stern: if one is still enslaved by poverty
[20:58] Oona Riaxik: yes
[20:58] Oona Riaxik: education is required
[20:59] Oona Riaxik: but who will provide that?
[20:59] Oona Riaxik: a lord will not like his tenants to be educated enough to live without him
[20:59] Oona Riaxik: the peasants are free in name but are still obliged to someone
[21:00] Aldo Stern: the jesuits were providing some of that...but they have been suppressed
[21:00] Aldo Stern: they only run their schools in Russia and Prussia now
[21:02] Oona Riaxik: Do know if the less afflutent students they have taught have bettered their lives after being educated?
[21:02] Oona Riaxik: or were they only more acutely aware of their wretchedness?
[21:02] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): *coughs and looks at the Professore* Herr Professor
[21:02] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): we have had an interesting discussion
[21:03] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): and we have come to the end of our time
[21:03] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but I fear we have no great answer
[21:03] Oona Riaxik: this will be a difficult question to resolve
[21:03] Oona Riaxik: perhaps we may speak of it again sometime
[21:04] Aldo Stern: yes, I agree we will have to have this discussion again sometime
[21:04] Oona Riaxik: thank you for sharing your thoughts and time

updated by @aldo-stern: 06 Oct 2016 06:08:19AM

A successful conclusion to the Treasure Hunt

Communty News & Events

Please forgive the delay in my making this announcement regarding our collective efforts last week to "recover the stolen Roman coins."

We are pleased to inform our friends and other interested parties that all the coins that "had been stolen and then hidden by brigands from the mainland" were recovered.

For the scholars among you, we should point out that what we were seeking to recover for research purposes (and eventual exhibition in the Accademia di Melioiria as that project moves forward), the small hoard of coins consisted of ten gold pieces minted by Bruto, the leader of the assassins of the great Giulio Cesare. Below is an example of these, which are of a type produced in the waning years of the Roman Republic by Bruto to pay his troops during the civil war with Octavio.

The winner of the treasure hunt was The Conte di Loredan (Myron Byron) who recovered all ten of the coins.

Runner-up was a three-way tie between the Contessa di Loredan (Sophia Trefusis), Signor Mercury Gandt, and Signorina Flamia Olivieri who found found 5 coins each.

Those who participated found it to be a serious challenge but seemed to enjoy themselves.

Thanks to all who took part and to Signorina Sere Timeless for scripting the coins, and the Reverend Cuthbert Helendale for enhancing the rp with his presence as our scholarly antiquary who has been supervising excavations on the island.

A special thanks to Donna Vanessa Montpenier for her generous donation of the prize money for the treasure hunt!

Mille grazie!

updated by @aldo-stern: 06 Oct 2016 06:08:14AM

Coffee House Salon Transcript: Tolerance in the Enlightenment

Communty News & Events

L to R: Cardinal Giovanni Marco Byers; Diogeneia Freifrau von Kuhr; Professore Aldo Stern, Lord O'Flaherty Dreadlow; Miss Sere Timeless

[08:12]Aldo Stern: The topic for today is...tolerance...particularly as it applies to various religions and religious affiliations in Europe.

[08:13]Aldo Stern: have you all had the opportunity to look at the readings that the Baronessa and I prepared in advance?

[08:14]OFlaherty Dreadlow: I confess that I haven't.

[08:14]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): Quite allright that is. It is merely to get the conversation going.

[08:14]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Yes, I have looked at the materials.And have been reviewing some recent publications by Monsieurs Rousseau and Voltaire.

[08:15]OFlaherty Dreadlow: Ah, yes....I did read through it quickly.

[08:15]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): and I would start there...

[08:15]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): The Professore wanted to put the quote from the Jew, Shylock, at the beginning ... what did you have in mind with that, Herr Professor?

[08:15]OFlaherty Dreadlow: There are, of course, newer writings...from our friends in the erstwhile colonies.

[08:16]OFlaherty Dreadlow: Jefferson, for one

[08:16]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Indeed. Mr. Jefferson has stirred up quite a bit of trouble with his Declaration of Independence.

[08:16]Aldo Stern: oh excellent points...we will get to those in minute...

[08:16]Aldo Stern: in answer to the Baronessa, I put that piece from the play there, because I think it represents something ...the mixed state of tolerance and it's cousins, empathy and acceptance, in Europe have been for some time and remain mixed.

[08:18]Aldo Stern: the playwright puts words in Shylock's mouth that imply an understanding of the injustice of his situation and of his people.

[08:18]Aldo Stern: at the same time, that he is unlikable character and comes out badly in the end of the play.

[08:19]Aldo Stern: our feelings versus our ideals are often at odds...

[08:19]Aldo Stern: but let us start with ideals...Sere, you mentioned looking at Rousseau and others...what did you take away from reviewing their thoughts on tolerance?

[08:20]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): The idea that it is important to separate religious allegiance from civil allegiance.

[08:20]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): That for the good of the state we must allow every person the right to their own religious practice.

[08:21]Aldo Stern: then they are saying societies should tolerate religious differences not so much for ideals, but for pragmatic reasons?

[08:22]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): I think so. But both Rousseau and Voltaire clearly believe there are some common civil ideals that must bind us all together.

[08:23]Aldo Stern: civil ideals , but not spiritual ones?

[08:23]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): It is interesting, I think, that both of those gentleman seem to separate the two. Yet when each talks about civic/civil ideas they seem very much grounded in the Christian tradition.

[08:24]Aldo Stern: interesting, indeed...

[08:24]Aldo Stern: your Lordship, you mentioned the American, Signore Jefferson...do you have some insights into how he views the issue?

[08:24]OFlaherty Dreadlow: Well, that touches on what I think is the crucial point.

[08:24]Aldo Stern: yes?

[08:24]OFlaherty Dreadlow: Note that we tend to talk about religious tolerance....

[08:25]OFlaherty Dreadlow: In essence, that means that we "tolerate" those with dissenting--that is, incorrect--views for the sake of a civil society.

[08:25]OFlaherty Dreadlow: Jefferson wrote the Statute of Religious FREEDOM in 1777.

[08:26]OFlaherty Dreadlow: That states that ALL religious points of view--from the point of the state--are equally valid and is revolutionary

[08:27]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): I wonder if Mr. Jefferson would be quite so tolerant of a religion that required human sacrifice. That would seem to put religious beliefs and the common good at odds.

[08:27]OFlaherty Dreadlow: And, if I may broach a delicate subject, why most of views like that were hidden in secret societies.

[08:28]OFlaherty Dreadlow: That would violate a basic civil law and could be banned on that basis.

[08:29]Aldo Stern: but then is not Signore Jefferson essentially a deist.

[08:30]OFlaherty Dreadlow: He was but it was not crucial for him to be a deist to believe that--from society's point of view--all religions are valid.

[08:30]Aldo Stern: taking a philosophical perspective that there is a Divine, and all religions are some form of manifestation of that, and consequently all valid.

[08:31]OFlaherty Dreadlow: It's important to keep in mind that one period of "tolerance" can be followed by one of intolerance when those in "hiding" come out in the open and are...removed.

[08:31]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): I think his Lordship makes a interesting point about the revolutionary nature of this...as it does seem to be a mix of principles and ideals ... it is good for the state for the different groups to be productive elements of society.

[08:31]OFlaherty Dreadlow: Hence, the Masons....even more, speaking of Jefferson, hence the Illuminati.

[08:31]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but also there is an idealism there.

[08:32]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): it not just simply like with the Jews in some places where they are tolerated, but not accepted, because of their banking skills and resources.

[08:33]OFlaherty Dreadlow: Exactly, until the wealth those areas provide become tempting and subject to jealousy.

[08:33]Aldo Stern: yes, or they are perceived as becoming too politically powerful.

[08:33]OFlaherty Dreadlow: Indeed.

[08:34]OFlaherty Dreadlow: AND they are identifiable because of the earlier "tolerance."

[08:34]Aldo Stern: as happened when the British were considering a naturalization act for the Jews back in the 1750s.

[08:34]Aldo Stern: popular opinion was stirred up and the act failed not so much on issues of faith,but because many English people feared the Jews could take control of their political affairs.

[08:35]OFlaherty Dreadlow: Which brings us to the crux of the problem: human nature that seeks to protect itself by attacking the "other"

[08:36]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): well is that not why the Freemasons are suppressed some places--fear of their power and influence?

[08:36]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): and isn't that what happened to the Jesuits as well?

[08:36]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): And it is often easier to "justify" acts of intolerance and suppression by appealing to religious belief and God, than to admit to jealousy and fear.

[08:37]OFlaherty Dreadlow: At the moment, their influence is open--consider General Washington--but there will undoubtedly be a reaction from those outside their area of power.

[08:37]Aldo Stern: well that is a very complex chicken and egg thing isn't it?

[08:37]Aldo Stern: like with Catholics in Britain

[08:37]Aldo Stern: there is a fundamental ideological difference between the catholic and protestant perspectives

[08:38]Aldo Stern: they each think they are the one true version of Christianity.

[08:38]OFlaherty Dreadlow: Yes, I fear my mother's family (I'm half British/half Irish) will suffer much for their refusal to "conform"

[08:39]Aldo Stern: but in trying to impose the ideals, there is a see-saw history of struggling for power, and kings of the different faiths, and the gunpowder plot and the Jacobites uprising... and on and on.

[08:39]Aldo Stern: there is fear of Catholics among protestant Britons not just because of issues of faith, but because of the history that is there.

[08:40]Aldo Stern: that is why they have the settlement act regarding the faith that their rulers must adhere to.

[08:40]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): which we had in our notes

[08:40]Aldo Stern: yes, Baronessa, we did

[08:40]Aldo Stern: thank you for finding that

[08:40]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): *grins*

[08:40]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): One thing that makes Britain and the papal states different from many other nations is the fact that their civil authority -- the king or the Pope -- is also a religious authority.

[08:41]Aldo Stern: ah an important point...head of state as also head of the state religion.

[08:41]OFlaherty Dreadlow: All wars--both military and political--believe that THEIR war will end all wars.

[08:42]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Hence the appearance, and often the reality, is that if you don't conform to the state religion you are somehow a lesser citizen.

[08:42]Aldo Stern: well speaking of political power...how do you all feel regarding the Jesuits...and speaking of popes and their authority...

[08:42]Aldo Stern: have the Jesuits been suppressed in so many catholic states because someone fears them?

[08:43]OFlaherty Dreadlow: Intellectuals of all types are feared by the state

[08:43]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but not all states.

[08:44]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the Prussian King and Great Catherine in Russia have taken in the Jesuits and given them refuge.

[08:44]OFlaherty Dreadlow: Refuge....not inclusion

[08:44]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): mostly for the pragmatic reasons I think...good teachers they are.

[08:44]OFlaherty Dreadlow: And refuge can turn into entrapment at any time.

[08:44]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): I know Der Alte Fritz thinks having them teaching in Prussia strengthens his state.

[08:44]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): There is often fear of things that one does not understand and cannot control. Most secret societies, including the Jesuits, fall into that category.

[08:45]Aldo Stern: There are some who see a connection between the Jesuits and the freemasons and revolutionary ideas that could potentially overthrow old systems in places like France.

[08:46]OFlaherty Dreadlow: Since Rome ruled the western world, we have seen outsiders being taken into the state as "workers" but they usually grow into threats to the state.

[08:46]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): Greetings...

[08:47]Aldo Stern: good day , Your Eminence. How good of you to join us

[08:47]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): Good Morning, Sir and Madame. Please continue your conversation...

[08:47]Aldo Stern: we were discussing the various manifestations of intolerance...and the suppression of certain groups such as the Freemasons and the Jesuits and the limitation of rights for Jews in many places, or Catholics in England.

[08:48]Aldo Stern: and I think one theme that we have seemed to agree on, is that at the heart of intolerance is fear.

[08:48]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): oh well, the age of enlightenment is an interesting topic...

[08:48]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): about the Jesuits...I have some definite ideas...

[08:49]Aldo Stern: yes, Your Eminence, what are your thoughts regarding the Jesuits?

[08:49]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): In my own opinion I don't think the Jesuits will be suppressed.

[08:50]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): first of all, if the Jesuits really introduce new ideas I don't see anything that will undermine His Holiness...

[08:51]OFlaherty Dreadlow: Not suppressed? Everywhere, Eminence....or just where the Pope holds power?

[08:51]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): There are some people who may disagree with my opinion, however, and we must obey the decisions of His Holiness...

[08:51]Aldo Stern: there is the possibility that His Holiness was pressured, particularly by the Spanish and French courts about the Jesuits, but that his heart is not really in the suppression and that he was secretly pleased that Prussia and Russia have given them refuge.

[08:52]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): The biggest problem, I think, will be the Spanish monarch.

[08:52]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Why do you suppose that the Spanish and French courts are so fearful of the Jesuits?

[08:53]Aldo Stern: Perhaps that brings us to the other side of this ... what moves some people to look upon the benefits of tolerance...and to give more rights to oppressed religious minorities in their countries...

[08:53]OFlaherty Dreadlow: And we should not forget the Dutch....who have been most tolerant.

[08:54]OFlaherty Dreadlow glances at the cardinal for his reaction to that

[08:54]Aldo Stern: we mentioned Jefferson and Rousseau and Voltaire, but I rather liked the quote we included in the readings from John Locke, the English philosopher and doctor who was such an early influence.

[08:54]Aldo Stern: and he seems to be saying that tolerance is what a good Christian would do.

[08:55]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): The monarchs of Spain are afraid of what will happen if their colonies and trade arrangements are subjected to an organization that isnt Spanish. Jesuits actually stand for the Papal State.

[08:56]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Getting back to the Professores point, I think many of the current batch of philosophers make the point that Christian teaching makes it clear that all human knowledge is fallible.

[08:56]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Thus it is difficult to assert that one group's understanding of religion is better than the rest.

[08:56]Aldo Stern: which brings us back to a philosophical underpinning for tolerance.

[08:57]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): philosophy is one thing, but ultimately when most states act ... when governments act, when rulers act, they are doing what they see as good for their interests.

[08:57]OFlaherty Dreadlow: and this is probably a good point for me to beg your pardon.

[08:57]OFlaherty Dreadlow: I fear I have another engagement...

[08:57]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr):

[08:57]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): We have appreciated your company and insights, Lord Dreadlow.

[08:59]Aldo Stern: your Lordship, thank you for joining us .

[08:59]Aldo Stern: anyway, Baronessa, you were saying?

[08:59]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): well...

[08:59]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): that Prussia takes in the Jesuits because they are an intellectual resource.

[09:00]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): they take in the Jews and treat them relatively fairly because they have resources and skills.

[09:00]Aldo Stern: the British have arguably done the same.

[09:00]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): Russia has also done the same, I know.

[09:00]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): And so Prussia has separated religious belief from acting for the good of the state. Very progressive.

[09:00]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): and sometimes maybe one nation might take in the French protestants just because they are thinking it will annoy the French.

[09:01]Aldo Stern: *laughs*

[09:01]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): but apart from insuring the survival of the Jesuits, I see accepting the Jesuits into Russia as a more progressive action, especially because of what they can do for education.

[09:01]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ja, Eminence you are right, I think Catharine likes the Jesuits for what they can do to advance learning in her country.

[09:02]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): pretty much backward they are, you know.

[09:02]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): exactly

[09:02]Aldo Stern: yes, she desperately wants to create a modern nation.

[09:03]Aldo Stern: It is essential for Russia's survival and that means modernizing thought and education as well as industry and the military.

[09:04]Aldo Stern: but as we have said before...

[09:04]Aldo Stern: it is one thing to be tolerant of a religious group or an organization for pragmatic reasons, but it is another to see the "other" as a person.

[09:05]Aldo Stern: to accept him and his beliefs

[09:05]Aldo Stern: which is why we included the last bit from the play Nathan the Wise

[09:05]Aldo Stern: because what is interesting to me in that is that the Jewish characters, unlike Shylock, are likable and sympathetic.

[09:05]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): Dont forget that during most of the 18th Century, the church is a kingdom with a monarch (pope), prince (cardinal), land, and money.

[09:06]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ja. eminence

[09:06]Aldo Stern: the individuals in the play ..., Muslim, Jewish and Christian

all have good qualities

[09:07]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): But 1773 is the year that the Papal State dissolved,and most of the cardinals became representative of their kingdoms monarch ... not the Pope.This is especially true in Spain.

[09:08]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): The people who are afraid of the ideas of the enlightenment think the new ideas will destroy the christianity of the Church because they could undermine the traditional order and rules of the church.For example, the church had strong views about the nature of the universe.

[09:09]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): I forget the name of the scientist who was executed by the church because he described a theory of the universe which contradicted the churchs teaching.

[09:10]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Cardinal, do you think that the notion of religious tolerance ought to extend to matters of science?

[09:11]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): For the most part I agree. On the one hand I think the rule of the church, or I shall say the belief, should be under control by the Pope himself, but the Jesuits are another matter.

[09:11]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): Because of the Jesuits I think the church will be better able to focus on what we should focus on to do better.

[09:11]Aldo Stern: but again, as the Jesuits showed ... or John Locke stated ... learning, science, new ideas do not necessarily undermine our faith.

[09:12]Aldo Stern: we can be good Christians, ..or Jews ... or Zoroastrians I suppose, and still believe in the importance of new ideas and reason.

[09:12]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): But learning and science can undermine the ideas that have been promulgated for centuries by the head of a religious group like the Pope. That can seem very threatening.

[09:13]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): I certainly accept it will be threatening, but the oversight of the papal state is needed because the inventor of a new idea might overreach and cause further rebellion.

[09:14]Aldo Stern: change is always threatening from a certain perspective.

[09:14]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): But the Jesuits seem to be changing the thinking of the church especially on education and new scientific invention which is needed in the world today.

[09:15]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): I think we can agree that it is more difficult for a state to be tolerant of dissenting views, whether religious or scientific, when the head of the state is a religious leader.

[09:16]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): But I would like to get back to the ideas of Locke about how ordinary people view other religious groups.

[09:16]Aldo Stern: which is why as you said Sere, it was so interesting that Frederick of Prussia has separated the civil and religious authority...

[09:16]Aldo Stern: and his primary concern is what is good for the state.

[09:17]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): That separation makes it easier for ordinary people to be tolerant of other religions, I think. It seems almost a necessary precursor.

[09:19]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): I enjoyed the conversation today but must be going.

[09:19]Aldo Stern: we are very pleased that you could join us, Your Eminence

[09:20]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Thank you for coming Your Eminence. We have appreciated your ideas

[09:20]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): I am glad that the people have thought about the importance of enlightenment ... I am not one of those ultra-conservatives.

[09:20]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): have a good day...

[09:20]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): a pleasure it was to meet you.

[09:20]Giovanni Marco Byers (joubert.byers): pleasure to meet you all too.

[09:20]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Good day.

[09:20]Aldo Stern: arrividerci

[09:22]Aldo Stern: well shall we finish with Locke?

[09:22]Aldo Stern: the bit I was really impressed by was this:

[09:22]Aldo Stern: "I esteem that toleration to be the chief characteristic mark of the true Church."

[09:23]Aldo Stern: I think Locke sees tolerance as a Christian duty.

[09:23]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): A very revolutionary idea, and one that has resonated among the Enlightenment thinkers.

[09:24]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): well I think especially those who have a broader, less dogmatic view of their Christianity.

[09:25]Aldo Stern: like a Jefferson?

[09:26]Aldo Stern: unless I am very much mistaken we are all getting mentally tired.

[09:27]Aldo Stern: but may I sum up a few pints and see if we agree...

[09:27]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): I think perhaps you are right, Professore.

[09:27]Aldo Stern: that the root cause of intolerance and persecution may be ideological...or based in issues of faith...

[09:27]Aldo Stern: but he real engine of intolerance is fear.

[09:28]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): I would agree with that

[09:28]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): An excellent summary.

[09:28]Aldo Stern: and that the growth of tolerance is to a great extent based in pragmatism.

[09:29]Aldo Stern: but what will give it greater resonance is the philosophical ideals...from a broader view of what it means to be a person of faith.

[09:29]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): hmmm

[09:29]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): maybe

[09:30]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Certainly if tolerance can be made to seem like a core tenet of faith it is easier for most people to practice it.

[09:30]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but what makes tolerance work in my old homeland in Franconia...where both Catholics and Lutherans coexist happily...

[09:30]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): is simple humanity...you live close with people and you see them as people, not a papist or a Lutheran.

[09:31]Aldo Stern: or a Jew

[09:31]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ja

[09:31]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Living side by side reduces the amount of the "unknown" -- there is simply less to fear about people you know.

[09:31]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): my husband he was a Lutheran but not such a good one.

[09:32]Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): maybe that helped?

[09:32]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): If tolerance is a Christian virtue, your late husband might have been the very best kind of Lutheran.

[09:32]Aldo Stern: well on that note, I think we can bring this to a close

[09:32]Aldo Stern: I found the discussion very interesting

[09:33]Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Thank you for leading us Professore.

updated by @aldo-stern: 06 Oct 2016 06:07:52AM

Masters and Servants discussion transcript

Communty News & Events

My dear Contessa Foscari:

Thank you for your interest. We would be delighted if you could attend--we are going to try to do these most Saturday mornings, unless something intervenes. I am seriously thinking about religious tolerance (and intolerance) in an "enlightened" Europe as the subject for the next discussion. If you have ideas for topics or questions to explore, we would very much appreciate your suggestions.

My dear Signorina Dalville,

You bring up a very interesting point, the challenge and fun of doing these "in character" and in a certain historical time frame. For example, in this case, as we are in the year 1780, we can talk about Beaumarchais' play, "The Barber of Seville" but we can't talk about the sequel, "Marriage of Figaro," nor Mozart's opera of the same name. Nonetheless, Dio did manage to toss in a line about "someone should make an opera out of this."

And yes, it is both an OOC opportunity to learn and broaden one's general understanding of the time period, and also something that can shape and inform rp. It gives us something to think about--for example in response to Signore Villiers' question about "how do you treat your servants?" I think he is probably correct that "badly" would indeed be the most common answer. When you look at the number of "conduct books" and the ideal that is presented through something like Defoe's "Family Instructor," you suspect that all the admonitions to "unite authority with kindness" would not be made if the authors of such lines did not see the need to make the recommendation. Even in "Barber"--the piece of Beaumarchais' trilogy in which Count Almaviva is most sympathetically portrayed, the guy is still presented as a pretty much a jerk, insulting and berating Figaro, until he sees that he can get something out of his former servant that will serve the Count's own interests.

It's all fun stuff, and certainly can potentially enrich IC interactions.

If you have interest, perhaps I should post the notecard we distrubted before the discussion with recommended readings and excerpts.

Yours,

Professore Aldo Stern.

Masters and Servants discussion transcript

Communty News & Events

For those of you who were interested but had to miss the event due to schedule conflicts, below is a transcript from our first Coffee House Salon informal discussion, presented in edited form with permission of all who participated. Thank you to those who attended. It was an excellent start.

[08:26] Aldo Stern: at any rate, , the topic, is servants and masters...and how those tradtional relationships are perhaps changing

[08:27] Aldo Stern: recently, in another venue for discussion...

[08:27] Aldo Stern: a fellow asked the question of how people treated their servants...

[08:27] Aldo Stern: which struck me as interesting, the fact that he was even asking the question

[08:28] Aldo Stern: in the past....not so long ago, I do not think anyone would have bothered asking such a question

[08:28] Belladonna OHare: indeed

[08:29] Aldo Stern: have any of you read Castiglione's Book of the Courtier?

[08:29] Aria Vyper: no

[08:29] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ja, but it was many years ago

[08:30] Belladonna OHare: no

[08:30] Belladonna OHare: I have not

[08:30] Aldo Stern: Frau Kuhr, would you describe it for the others?

[08:30] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ah, it is the grandfather, so to speak , of the conduct books

[08:30] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): telling people how they should behave

[08:30] Belladonna OHare: ahhh indeed

[08:31] Belladonna OHare: I must get it

[08:31] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): back in the 1500s I think it was written

[08:31] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): telling how the good nobleman should act, and dress and all that

[08:31] Aria Vyper: wow - long time ago

[08:31] Aldo Stern: exactly

[08:31] Aldo Stern: all the books of manners today are arguably descended from Castiglione's

[08:32] Aldo Stern: do you recall Frau Kuhr, did he say anything about how a proper nobleman should treat his servants?

[08:32] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ah

[08:32] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): hmmm

[08:32] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): no

[08:32] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): I think it said the good courtier is gracious to everyone

[08:33] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but...like I said... it was a long time ago I read it

[08:33] Aldo Stern: that's my point...actually..in his day, social rank and position was set...everyone had a place, and yes the good courtier was gracious and proper with everyone...but all Castiglione said about servants was that they should be as polite and well mannered as their lord

[08:34] Aldo Stern: well dressed, clean

[08:34] Aldo Stern: he put a lot of emphasis on being clean for some reason

[08:34] Aldo Stern: but back then...I suspect how people were to treat servants was understood

[08:34] Aldo Stern: no one would have asked the question, how do you treat your servant?

[08:34] Aldo Stern: ...but now they do...so times, are changing, yes?

[08:34] Belladonna OHare: now those lines are being blurred

[08:35] Aldo Stern: ah Donna Bella has already answered question

[08:35] Aldo Stern: yes lines are blurred

[08:36] Aldo Stern: I know of a novelist and philosopher in germany...both of his parents were domestic servants

[08:37] Aldo Stern: two hundred years ago, could you have imagined such a thing happening?

[08:38] Aldo Stern: in your observations, ladies, may I ask, what do you observe? how do your friends and acquaintances treat their servants?

[08:39] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): you mean when they aren't slapping them?

[08:40] Aldo Stern: oh come now, they aren't all slapping them, all the time

[08:41] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): well, no not all the time...sometimes they are asleep

[08:41] Belladonna OHare: I observed an incident recently of one noble lady

[08:41] Belladonna OHare: abusing a small boy, the servant of the king's mistress

[08:42] Belladonna OHare: many ladies of the court where appalled at the treatment and comforted the child

[08:42] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): I am glad to hear that Fraulein Bella...but I wonder if the abuse had been of an adult, would any sympathy have been offered?

[08:42] Vanessa Montpenier: well I think the majority of people still thinks a servant is born with his "title" and dies with his "title" but on the other hand, I believe this attitude for the servants differs in every culture

[08:42] Aldo Stern: ah that is an interesting point Donna Vanessa...it is different in different situations and cultures?

[08:43] Vanessa Montpenier: indeed

[08:43] Belladonna OHare: I believe basic humanity is the same from culture to culture

[08:43] Belladonna OHare: some are kind...some are not

[08:44] Aldo Stern: ah very true...

[08:44] Belladonna OHare: I have observed that the woman who was cruel to the servant is cruel in all her dealings

[08:45] Aldo Stern: not just to servants, but to her equals as well?

[08:45] Belladonna OHare: Yes, Professore

[08:45] Vanessa Montpenier: well in the oriental world, they collect small boys from the vilages and take them to the palace and some of them are chosen to have the education with the future "sultan" and the rest are chosen to be servants

[08:46] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): so that is just by chance? that you become a vizier or a servant?

[08:46] Belladonna OHare: The luck of the dice determines your future?

[08:47] Belladonna OHare: How interesting those Easterners are.

[08:47] Vanessa Montpenier: you quite misunderstand madame.. when they collect the kids from the villages, they are taken to a place like a dormitory

[08:47] Aldo Stern: I suspect there is more to it--that they see which child may be best suited for a certain future...

[08:47] Aldo Stern: so it is a bit more of a judgement

[08:47] Vanessa Montpenier: yes, they make..mm.. how to say... exams... physical and intellectual

[08:47] Belladonna OHare: I see

[08:47] Aldo Stern: but perhaps at the heart of it, they look on them all as servants

[08:48] Aldo Stern: it is simply that the educated vizier is still a servant of his sultan in matters of diplomacy and administration...

[08:48] Belladonna OHare: I quite agree, as there is no choice for the children in the matter

[08:48] Aldo Stern: while his less educable brother serves as the cup bearer

[08:48] Belladonna OHare: so in the end they are all servants

[08:49] Vanessa Montpenier: but the point is, the sultan always keeps his servants close to him and he trusts them more than anyone in the palace

[08:50] Vanessa Montpenier: what I am tryin to say is, in the oriental world, servants are collected and raised from the early ages

[08:50] Belladonna OHare: Indeed, there has always been a vast difference between East and West!

[08:50] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ahhhh... I think Donna Vanessa's point about different cultures is very important...Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): not just different places, but different circumstances

[08:50] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): for example...in the great palace of a king, the hundreds of servants will have a different relationship than in a country house, where the family has one steward, and a cook

[08:50] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): in those country houses...well, like mine...the servants were more...like part of the family

[08:51] Belladonna OHare: Indeed Frau Kuhr

[08:51] Aldo Stern: and I assume you as the lady of the household had obligations to those servants, as they were, more or less, "part of the family"?

[08:52] Belladonna OHare: In the country the servants are not separated physically by vast distances, such as in a large chateau

[08:52] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): yes of course

[08:52] Vanessa Montpenier: but unfortunately no matter how they are different from us, the gold coins talk nowadays *smiles*

[08:52] Aldo Stern: how do you mean Donna Vanessa?

[08:53] Vanessa Montpenier: I mean financially Don Aldo

[08:54] Aldo Stern: can you elaborate on what you mean?

[08:55] Vanessa Montpenier: Europe has a deep history and modern culture, although how the majority of people still treat their servants, is in the old ways...but what I am trying to say is that East has the chance to adopt this civilization but their culture, I think, will not let them do so...

[08:56] Aldo Stern: hmmm

[08:56] Aldo Stern: so our relationships between different people of different stations are set by traditions..,.even religion, perhaps?

[08:57] Vanessa Montpenier: well.. what I personally believe, no matter how people try to enlighten themselves, their traditions can haunt them..

[08:58] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ahhhh

[08:59] Aldo Stern: which is why, even in modern Europe of 1780, there is so much tension and inconsistency as our relationships change?

[08:59] Belladonna OHare: those traditions may be in the back of our mind Madame, but I believe the truly the enlightened can learn and change and better themselves.

[08:59] Belladonna OHare: that is my hope for our future

[09:00] Vanessa Montpenier: despite your correct remarks madame, enlightenment needs certain amount of time and philosophy

[09:00] Aldo Stern: that is a very enlightened viewpoint Donna Bella, it brings to mind the excerpt from Daniel Defoe's Family Instructor that I included on the notecard

[09:00] Aldo Stern: did any of you have a chance to read it?

[09:02] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ja...once I got used to his style, I thought it was interesting...Herr Defoe, he wrote about this very religious servant, who "taught" things to not just the children of the family she worked for, but to her Mistress as well!

[09:03] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): it was the ideal, not so much the reality, I think

[09:03] Aldo Stern: yes...probably

[09:04] Aldo Stern: it is in some ways a conduct book

[09:04] Aldo Stern: like the Book of the Courtier, but it is so very very different...written as a fictional story, almost like a play

[09:05] Aldo Stern: it is also important to note that it is about families that are not of high rank, but in the middle somewhere

[09:05] Aldo Stern: and at the end, the sea captain, who is wealthy but not of noble rank, marries the good servant girl

[09:06] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ja, that would not happen with the servant of a noble...they might have the carnal relations, but never the getting married

[09:06] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): where I come from, in places like Prussia, if a noble marries outside of their class, they lose the noble status, by law

[09:07] Aldo Stern: hmmm good point

[09:07] Aldo Stern: but still..even if it is not a realistic story...more like a fable....it is encouraging something: that servants should do more than just dress the children and teach them nursery rhymes...

[09:09] Aldo Stern: but teach them their prayers...be a good christian influence on those you work for

[09:09] Aldo Stern: this I think is a pretty remarkable idea...that a servant could have a good influence on their "betters"

[09:10] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): this Defoe fellow, he is the writer of the Robinson Crusoe story, ja?

[09:10] Aldo Stern: yes, indeed he is

[09:11] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): I think he writes about how he thinks things should be like, more than how they are

[09:12] Aldo Stern: yes...he actually got placed in the pillory for three days for his writing

[09:12] Aldo Stern: but that was early in this century

[09:12] Aldo Stern: things are different now...

[09:12] Aldo Stern: I hope...

[09:13] Aldo Stern: for example...Signore Pierre Beaumarchais, who has written the humorous play the Barber of Seville....

[09:14] Aldo Stern: the French King and his government, would not let them show the play at first...but at least he did not have Beaumarchais thrown in prison or put in the pillory

[09:14] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): and now they have even let him put onthe play, yes?

[09:15] Aldo Stern: yes..did any of you have the chance to see the play, or perhaps read the little excerpts inthe notecard?

[09:16] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): very funny I thought they were

[09:18] Vanessa Montpenier: I am afraid I have not had the chance yet

[09:18] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): surprised I am that he didn't get in more trouble for that...making fun of nobles

[09:19] Aldo Stern: I particularly found these lines from the play to be striking:

Count.

I do not believe thou tellest all the Truth; I remember thou hadst but a dubious Character when in my Service.

Figaro.

My God! my Lord, you rich Folks always would have us poor ones be entirely without faults.

Count.

Idle, debauchd,

Figaro.

According to the Perfections you fine Gentleman expect in your Servants, does your Excellency think many of your Acquaintance worthy the Office of Valet-de-Chambre?

[09:20] Aldo Stern: Figaro is saying that if the Count held his noble friends to the same standards he tried to apply to his servants, none of his noble friends would qualify as even a valet

[09:21] Vanessa Montpenier: *laughs

[09:21] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): well , it is the truth, ja?

[09:21] Belladonna OHare laughs

[09:21] Belladonna OHare: I would agree to that, based on some of the conduct I have seen at the various courts I have visited

[09:22] Aldo Stern: there is also, a lively give and take between the Count, and Figaro, who was his servant

[09:22] Aldo Stern: there is no deference given to the Count by Figaro...in fact, if you read the whole play, you realize he helps the Count partly out of fear....

[09:23] Aldo Stern: and partly out of self interest

[09:23] Aldo Stern: to gain an advantage

[09:23] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): it was very funny...someone should make an opera out of that play

[09:24] Aldo Stern: I understand Beaumarchais originally wanted it done as a comedic opera...but it just didn't seem to work out. *shrugs* oh well, maybe someday

[09:26] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): is it true the queen of France wanted it shown on stage, but her husband was the one that felt it was too hard on the nobles?

[09:27] Aldo Stern: I have heard something to that effect, but I do not know if it is true or not

[09:27] Aldo Stern: we are almost at our allotted time to end

[09:28] Aldo Stern: and I think we have well established that yes, regarding the relationships between masters and servants...in fact between all classes...as Donna Bella said, the lines are becoming blurred...

[09:28] Aldo Stern: we all agree that it is changing yes?

[09:29] Belladonna OHare: indeed they are

[09:29] Aria Vyper: yes

[09:29] Vanessa Montpenier: I completely agree

[09:29] Belladonna OHare: and I for one am thrilled, I feel it heralds a new age!

[09:29] Aldo Stern: haha, you Donna Bella, unless I am very mistaken, are a nonconformist at heart?

[09:30] Belladonna OHare: In my heart and soul Don Stern

[09:30] Aldo Stern: but then the last question is why....

[09:31] Aldo Stern: Donna Vanessa mentioned gold...are economics changing our relationships?

[09:31] Vanessa Montpenier: Economics is changing the world itself Don Aldo, not only the relationships *smiles*

[09:31] Belladonna OHare: I believe it was the invention of the printing press that started the change--but it has taken time

[09:32] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ah that is an interesting idea

[09:32] Belladonna OHare: but people have begun to receive knowledge and information

[09:32] Belladonna OHare: which is the key in my opinion to change

[09:32] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): maybe the nobles who don't want things to change they should try to keep the poor and the servants ignorant and illiterate

[09:33] Belladonna OHare: yes but now even servants can read and have access to large numbers of books...some even own a book, at least a bible

[09:33] Aldo Stern: yes, Donna Bella...I am sorry none of the apprentices are here today...they are remarkable boys. They not only read and write but they are well read and fluent in different languages

[09:34] Belladonna OHare: yes

[09:34] Aldo Stern: Rico the printers apprentice can read and write in Hebrew

[09:34] Aldo Stern: and the boy Fiorino can read and write in ancient greek and latin

[09:34] Belladonna OHare: and I believe it all started with the printing printing press, I believe it will be the greatest invention of the last 1000 yrs

[09:34] Aldo Stern: they will not be content to gondoliers and printers helpers

[09:35] Aldo Stern: they will want to be more

[09:35] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): well that is the other thing that makes the change, ja? That the people in lower stations like servants, they have more choices now

[09:35] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): they can go into a city and work in a factory or workshop of some kind

[09:36] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the men they can become soldiers...

[09:36] Belladonna OHare: the women open shops

[09:36] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): you mentioned the man whose parents were servants and he is now a novelist...

[09:36] Belladonna OHare: my wig makers and dressmakers are talented women

[09:37] Belladonna OHare: I am sorrry

[09:37] Belladonna OHare: I must leave

[09:37] Belladonna OHare: thank you for a wonderful time

[09:37] Aldo Stern: thank you for coming Donna Bella, you added a great deal to the discussion

[09:38] Aldo Stern: we thank you for your insights and contribution

[09:38] Aldo Stern: but still people need the servants for their households, whether they are large or small...so here is the last thing I will share...also I put this in the notecard

[09:38] Aldo Stern: but let me repeat it

[09:39] Aldo Stern: this is from Signora Hester Chapones book which is a guide to how a young lady should behave and run her household:

Those who continually change their servants, and complain of perpetual ill-usage, have good reason to believe that the fault is in themselves, and that they do not know how to govern. Few indeed possess the skill to unite authority with kindness, or are capable of that steady and uniformly reasonable conduct, which alone can maintain true dignity, and command a willing and attentive obedience.

[09:39] Aldo Stern: you notice how she mentions "kindness"?

[09:40] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ja,

[09:40] Vanessa Montpenier: well. all starts with kindness Don Aldo...*smiles*

[09:41] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): you know I bet you the reason why she thinks the mistress has to mix the kindness and authority is because with the choices servants have, they are going to walk out if you just slap them around all the time

[09:41] Aria Vyper: everyone - I must go meet a friend, I hope you don't mind me taking my leave

[09:41] Aldo Stern: or course Donna Ariella, thank you for joining us

[09:41] Aldo Stern: well I think you are both right...

[09:42] Aldo Stern: the Baronessa from a very practical standpoint

[09:42] Aldo Stern: and Donna Vanessa, from the idealistic, moral standpoint

[09:42] Vanessa Montpenier: on the other hand Don Aldo,

[09:43] Vanessa Montpenier: being idealistic does not always work nowadays in these circumstances

[09:44] Aldo Stern: oh? how so?

[09:45] Vanessa Montpenier: well..

[09:46] Vanessa Montpenier: when a country is ruled by a king who says " l'etat , c'est moi", it can be a mistake to be so idealistic

[09:47] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but even if he is the state, cannot the state be based on the ideals of some kind?

[09:48] Aldo Stern: do ideals make him somehow weaker?

[09:49] Vanessa Montpenier: everything that grows against him makes him weaker

[09:51] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): hmmm I am thinking i would argue that it is not the ideals that make for weakness...it is the resistance to change

[09:51] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): we all agree things are changing, ja?

[09:51] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): maybe it becomes like the avalanche rolling down the hillside, you stand in front of it and say "stop" and it will just be rolling right over you

[09:52] Vanessa Montpenier: good remark

[09:52] Aldo Stern: but if you get behind it...

[09:52] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): or maybe you climb up a tree *pictures Louis of France clinging at the top of a pine tree*

[09:53] Aldo Stern: well, this has been an enjoyable discussion

[09:54] Aldo Stern: I hope you found it interesting, Donna Vanessa

[09:55] Vanessa Montpenier: it was a pleasant discussion for my side

[09:55] Vanessa Montpenier: thank you for the invite

[09:56] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): very good it was, Herr Professor, danke for leading it

updated by @aldo-stern: 18 Oct 2016 08:34:41PM