the readings:
Man is born free, yet everywhere is in chains.
- Jean Jacques Rousseau
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Slavery, properly so called, is the establishment of a right which gives to one man such a power over another as renders him absolute master of his life and fortune. The state of slavery is in its own nature bad. It is neither useful to the master nor to the slave; not to the slave, because he can do nothing through a motive of virtue; nor to the master, because by having an unlimited authority over his slaves he insensibly accustoms himself to the want of all moral virtues, and thence becomes fierce, hasty, severe, choleric, voluptuous, and cruel. ... where it is of the utmost importance that human nature should not be debased or dispirited, there ought to be no slavery. In democracies, where they are all upon equality; and in aristocracies, where the laws ought to use their utmost endeavors to procure as great an equality as the nature of the government will permit, slavery is contrary to the spirit of the constitution: it only contributes to give a power and luxury to the citizens which they ought not to have.
from the The Spirit of the Laws, 1748, Charles de Montesquieu
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...he who attempts to get another man into his absolute power does thereby put himself into a state of war with him; it being to be understood as a declaration of a design upon his life. For I have reason to conclude that he who would get me into his power without my consent would use me as he pleased when he had got me there, and destroy me too when he had a fancy to it; for nobody can desire to have me in his absolute power unless it be to compel me by force to that which is against the right of my freedom - i.e. make me a slave. To be free from such force is the only security of my preservation, and reason bids me look on him as an enemy to my preservation who would take away that freedom which is the fence to it; so that he who makes an attempt to enslave me thereby puts himself into a state of war with me.
Two Treatises on Government (1680-1690), Book II, of the State of War, John Locke
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After leaving Eldorado, Candide and Cacambo reach the Dutch colony of Surinam...
As they drew near to the town, they came on a Negro lying on the ground half-naked, which in his case meant in half a pair of short denim breeches. The poor man was missing his left leg and his right hand.
"My God!" said Candide..., "what are you doing lying here, my friend, in this dreadful state?"
"I'm waiting for my master, Mr. van der Hartbargin, the well-known trader," replied the Negro.
"And is it Mr. van der Hartbargin," said Candide, "who has treated you like this?"
"Yes, sir," said the Negro, "it is the custom. We are given one pair of short denim breeches twice a year, and that's all we have to wear. When we're working at the sugar-mill and catch our finger in the grinding-wheel, they cut off our hand. When we try to run away, they cut off a leg. I have been in both these situations. This is the price you pay for the sugar you eat in Europe. However, when my mother sold me...she said to me: 'My dear child, bless our fetishes, worship them always, they will bring you a happy life. You have the honour of being a slave to our lords and masters the Whites and, by so being, you are making your father's and mother's fortune.' Alas! I don't know if I made their fortune, but they didn't make mine. Dogs, monkeys, parrots, they're all a thousand times less wretched than we are. The Dutch fetishes who converted me tell me every Sunday that we are all the sons of Adam, Whites and Blacks alike. I'm no genealogist, but if these preachers are right, we are all cousins born of first cousins. Well, you will grant me that you can't treat a relative much worse than this."
- "Candide, or the Optomist," - Voltaire
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the discussion:
[19:54] Oona Riaxik: Buona sera!
[19:54] Aldo Stern: ah bona sera signorina
[19:54] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): good evening
[19:55] Aldo Stern: won't please join us?
[19:55] Oona Riaxik: It is nice to see you again, mme. Kuhr.
[19:55] Oona Riaxik: A pleasure to meet you, M. Stern
[19:55] Oona Riaxik: Grazie
[19:56] Aldo Stern: I am gratifed that you came to join us tonight
[19:56] Aldo Stern: *signals for more coffee to be brought*
[19:57] Oona Riaxik: I am afraid I did not get to prepare as much as i would have liked
[19:57] Oona Riaxik: (at all)!
[19:58] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): preparation is not so essential--it is the process of thinking and asking questions, that is necessary
[19:58] Aldo Stern: exactly
[19:58] Oona Riaxik: d'accord
[19:58] Aldo Stern: I have shared a few readings in advance to help facilitate the conversation
[19:59] Aldo Stern: did you get them Signorina Oona?
[19:59] Oona Riaxik: yes, very good selections
[19:59] Oona Riaxik: si
[19:59] Aldo Stern: excellent
[19:59] Oona Riaxik: I had hoped to bring some passages form Gastavus Vassa with me
[20:00] Oona Riaxik: but perhaps I can find them later...
[20:01] Aldo Stern: ah, the african man who had been a slave and has written some of his life , no?
[20:01] Oona Riaxik: yes, he is also known as Ouladah Equiano
[20:02] Oona Riaxik: a latin variation of his original name
[20:03] Oona Riaxik: It is compelling to have the voice of a former slave added to the white reflection of their wretched laws
[20:04] Aldo Stern: well i think you can argue that it is very important for such narratives to be written and published as it reminds people that the enslaved are after all human beings as much as any of us
[20:05] Oona Riaxik: precisely and when they see an accomplished and learned african
[20:05] Oona Riaxik: they cannot continue to deny his equality
[20:05] Oona Riaxik: and they cannot doubt the veracity of his tale
[20:06] Oona Riaxik: however it is the responsibility of "men" of reason to use it and take responsibility for what we have begun
[20:06] Oona Riaxik: for no african became a slave of his own volition[20:06] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): yet, even when we see that...it does not always change how we all choose to act...after all...do we all agree that the holding of slaves is wrong?
[20:06] Oona Riaxik: we do agree
[20:07] Aldo Stern: yes, of course...just as I would not wish to be a slave, neither would I wish to be a slave owner
[20:07] Oona Riaxik: but we are of a rare mind in our society
[20:07] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): *smiles sadly* yes, and there is the fact we have on the table before us, the bowl of sugar...
[20:08] Oona Riaxik: and coffee from the east 
[20:08] Aldo Stern: yes..no doubt the product of the work of enslaved laborers in Surinam, or Jamaica, perhaps?
[20:08] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the fact is, many think...or know it to be wrong
[20:09] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but see no way around the economic issue
[20:09] Aldo Stern: hmmm the economics of it...
[20:10] Aldo Stern: which is why we can have countries like England and France which do not permit the holding of slaves in their homelands, but in the colonies, the economic basis for the plantation system is slave labor
[20:10] Oona Riaxik: England has only recently stopped the holding of slaves by law
[20:11] Oona Riaxik: they set the example for the colonies
[20:11] Oona Riaxik: and now the colonies cannot be controlled
[20:11] Aldo Stern: yes...and that law did not affect the colonies
[20:11] Aldo Stern: it is interesting, Lord Mansfield, the chief justice...
[20:11] Aldo Stern: while he certainly considered slavery odious
[20:12] Aldo Stern: he was very concerned in hearing that case, that it would have a terrible affect on his nation's economy if slavery was stopped completely
[20:13] Oona Riaxik: yes the english have made a convenient excuse for themselves...
[20:13] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): we have the very mixed feelings about such things, ja?
[20:13] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): we wish to be moral
[20:13] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): to do the right thing
[20:13] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but neither do we wish to hurt our countrymen
[20:13] Oona Riaxik: the courts can justify themselves by saying that they are doing the right by allowing the nation to prosper
[20:13] Aldo Stern: and for that matter everyone does not agree on the morality of it
[20:14] Oona Riaxik: as long as it in place, it is already too late seems to be the attitude... which begs the question then
[20:14] Oona Riaxik: that if slavery is to continue, is it not better to be a slaveowner and treat as many as humanely as possible?
[20:14] Aldo Stern: we have thinkers like Locke and Rousseau who say that it is against natural law for one man to abridge another's freedom
[20:15] Aldo Stern: yet other philosphers say that individual rights are not to be violated..and that includes his right to his property...
[20:15] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ah.,.,.and the slave is seen as the property, ja?
[20:15] Aldo Stern: exactly
[20:15] Oona Riaxik: thery are many in the British colonies like George Washington who do not agree but own slaves... same questions as Mansfield
[20:15] Oona Riaxik: we would first have to establish that a person can be property according to natural rights
[20:15] Oona Riaxik: but I dont think we can
[20:16] Aldo Stern: I certainly think Locke and Rousseau would agree with you on that
[20:17] Oona Riaxik: well if all individuals have rights, then individuals who are considered property also have rights
[20:17] Aldo Stern: but does it come down to our self interests shaping our understanding of what is right...
[20:17] Oona Riaxik: therefore this line of thinking is flawed
[20:17] Oona Riaxik: if the moral code is so individual, it cannot be a standard for anyone
[20:18] Aldo Stern: for example...in the last several centuries, the Jesuits have fought very hard in certain places to end the enslavement of the indians, the natives of the americas, such as the Guarani in the Aamzonian wilderness
[20:18] Aldo Stern: but in order to replace the indian laborers, the plantation owners turned to black slaves from africa
[20:18] Oona Riaxik: self-interest cannot be the only determinant of a moral code
[20:18] Oona Riaxik: as the Baronessa mentioned earlier, there is the good of the whole to be considered
[20:19] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but are the Africans not men as much as the indians are?
[20:19] Aldo Stern: yes...the Jesuits call them "children of Adam" deserving of decent treatment...
[20:20] Aldo Stern: yet in this century, before the suppression of the Order, there were Jesuit-owned plantations using africans as slave laborers
[20:20] Oona Riaxik: so our moral code should dictate we care for others as well as property - by either argument, we have a duty to care for the slaves
[20:20] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): not so consistent we are
[20:22] Aldo Stern: no Baronessa, we are not very consistent at all
[20:22] Oona Riaxik: an unhealthy self-interest leads to hypocrisy
[20:23] Oona Riaxik: we do a disservice to our own kind as well
[20:23] Aldo Stern: yes Signorina Oona, that is true...
[20:23] Oona Riaxik: as we displace workers by bringing in cheap labor
[20:24] Oona Riaxik: our poor are getting poorer while work is assigned to these slaves
[20:24] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): hmph but the plantation owners will tell you that the european workers are not suited to the heat and hard work of a sugar plantation like the Africans are...
[20:25] Oona Riaxik: oui but this argument does not justify slavery
[20:25] Oona Riaxik: then have free black men work for you with pay
[20:25] Oona Riaxik: the point is they will not do this work
[20:25] Oona Riaxik: if they have a choice because the work itself is barbaric
[20:26] Aldo Stern: no, neither would they wish to leave their homelands in africa for that matter
[20:26] Oona Riaxik: only by decreasing demand for these commodities can we change this - as we said in the beginning - it is all about economics
[20:27] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): perhaps...but still at the very heart of it, we have to say no, this is wrong...
[20:27] Oona Riaxik: they would not wish to leave africa certainly but many of the slaves we take form there are already slaves in africa
[20:27] Oona Riaxik: if they have no home to return to,
[20:27] Oona Riaxik: they can be freemen working here
[20:27] Oona Riaxik: but slave owners will not pay for what they can get for free
[20:27] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): you would think people would see things differently when they reflect on the fact that white Christian europeans are enslaved by the thousands in north africa
[20:28] Oona Riaxik: yes Baronessa, such a shame and a disgrace
[20:28] Aldo Stern: hmmm a good point Baronessa, if people think about it, they would realize that no one happily accepts slavery
[20:29] Aldo Stern: otherwise, there would not be slave rebellions
[20:29] Aldo Stern: like the big uprising of christian slaves in Algiers in 1763...
[20:29] Oona Riaxik: the problem with the africans is deeper in that they are not even considered people
[20:30] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): ja Fraulein Oona, it only works in your mind if you convince yourself that they are NOT people you are enslaving...
[20:30] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but are instead some kind of lesser being
[20:31] Aldo Stern: which brings us back to why it is so important for people to read the slave narratives...
[20:31] Oona Riaxik: then it is education that defines a mans worth?
[20:31] Oona Riaxik: whites treat Equiano as an equal with rights because he is educated
[20:32] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the thing is, of course...there is slavery that hangs on in Europe...though it is not called slavery
[20:32] Aldo Stern: ah yes..the serfdom in Russia and other lands inthe east
[20:32] Oona Riaxik: oui
[20:32] Aldo Stern: the hereditary coal workers in Scotland
[20:33] Oona Riaxik: again, an uneducated population being called lesser for their lack of WE have not provided for them
[20:33] Oona Riaxik: by keeping the downtrodden down, we dehumanize them to justify our objectrivity of their lives
[20:33] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): hmmph I also see sometimes the well-born, who treat their paid servants as if they were slaves...
[20:34] Oona Riaxik: same idea
[20:34] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): Some people they are simply trained in the ways of being mean
[20:35] Oona Riaxik: yes, but we have institutionalized a whole way of being mean, certified it as ok because it is legal
[20:35] Aldo Stern: there are some who argue it is simply the way of the world...
[20:36] Oona Riaxik: and worse in some countries, it is illegal, but they profit from it in colonies -
[20:36] Oona Riaxik: hypocrisy at its finest[20:36] Aldo Stern: there are those who think that Voltaire thought that way...
[20:36] Aldo Stern: that the world is cruel and imperfect...and we must simply accept that...but I think they misunderstood what he was trying to say in works like Candide
[20:36] Oona Riaxik: yes?
[20:37] Aldo Stern: yes...if you read the exchange that Candide has with the crippled slave in Surinam...
[20:37] Aldo Stern: it is sarcasm and irony that he is using...
[20:38] Aldo Stern: people do not always understand irony very well
[20:38] Oona Riaxik: very true
[20:38] Aldo Stern: in that sense I think Voltaire's wit worked against his own message
[20:39] Aldo Stern: in that case about the horrors and injustice of slavery
[20:39] Aldo Stern: and the hypocrisy of religion being used to justify slavery
[20:40] Oona Riaxik: Voltaire is saying that religion itself is part of the charade
[20:40] Aldo Stern: yes absolutely
[20:41] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): hmph I am thinking Herr Voltaire is perhaps more upset about the religious hypocrisy than the tragedy and injustice of the slavery
[20:41] Oona Riaxik: good point... that may be
[20:41] Aldo Stern: perhaps....and he doesn't really offer a solution....
[20:41] Aldo Stern: so then what is the solution?
[20:43] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): hah maybe the solution is for the slave owners to go be a slave of the barbary corsairs for a while..then I am thinking they won't think enslavement is so very benign
[20:43] Oona Riaxik: splendid idea
[20:44] Oona Riaxik: but who will make the rum?
[20:44] Oona Riaxik: the sugar is so important
[20:44] Oona Riaxik: and certain navies could not function without rum!
[20:45] Aldo Stern: we are trapped by such thinking...
[20:45] Oona Riaxik: we can sponsor more science? improve our laws...
[20:45] Oona Riaxik: but slavery will continue as long as it is profitable
[20:45] Aldo Stern: you know Rousseau said we are everywhere in chains...
[20:45] Aldo Stern: perhaps he did not mean just in terms of literal slavery
[20:46] Aldo Stern: but that we are ALL enslaved...but our narrow thinking...
[20:46] Oona Riaxik: i see...
[20:46] Aldo Stern: by our self interest
[20:46] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the slave owner is in some ways a prisoner too?
[20:47] Oona Riaxik: but how can a man moved only by money make a moral decision for the better of another? he cannot
[20:47] Oona Riaxik: this man cannot ever learn that he has imprisoned himself - he is not capable
[20:47] Oona Riaxik: when greed obscures his reason
[20:48] Aldo Stern: yes you can argue that they are trapped by ignorance and greed
[20:48] Aldo Stern: but also by our greed...for example, we like to eat sugar...
[20:48] Aldo Stern: but we wish to pay less for it
[20:48] Aldo Stern: one man uses slaves to harvest and mill his sugar cane...
[20:49] Aldo Stern: so he sells it for less than the next plantation owner...
[20:49] Aldo Stern: who then says, "oh I must cut my costs too"...and he buys the slaves to do the work as well...
[20:49] Aldo Stern: so he can sell sugar as cheap as the first fellow
[20:50] Aldo Stern: because WE do not wish to pay so much for sweetening our coffee
[20:50] Oona Riaxik: but if it is not sugar, it will be some other commodity used to exploit the wretches... for we have sanctioned slavery
[20:50] Oona Riaxik: and made it wholesome by making it the base of our economic pillar
[20:50] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): then that structure
[20:51] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): the house built with such pillars..must be torn down, no?
[20:51] Oona Riaxik: yes!
[20:51] Oona Riaxik: and what will replace it?
[20:52] Aldo Stern: a good question
[20:52] Oona Riaxik: who will be willing to take the fall? no one
[20:52] Oona Riaxik: and for what, for people that are already declared objects?
[20:52] Aldo Stern: I would have said that the ideals of men like those who have written the american declaration of independence were on the right path
[20:52] Aldo Stern: but...
[20:52] Aldo Stern: it makes no sense...you look at Signor Jefferson
[20:53] Aldo Stern: who wrote these great words, "all men are created equal"
[20:53] Aldo Stern: yet he himself is an owner of slaves
[20:53] Oona Riaxik: he has a limited definition for MEN
[20:53] Oona Riaxik: he means only landowners
[20:54] Aldo Stern: *sighs*
[20:54] Aldo Stern: it is a shame
[20:54] Oona Riaxik: many colonists own slaves who do not agree with it
[20:54] Oona Riaxik: but perhaps they feel they can take on this issue when their country is more stable
[20:55] Oona Riaxik: that to be good a good a slaveowner is better than to leave them in the hands of cruel owners
[20:55] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): perhaps
[20:56] Aldo Stern: *looks out over the beautiful sea*
[20:56] Aldo Stern: you know...that is a very good question...
[20:57] Aldo Stern: technically there is no slavery around here...
[20:57] Aldo Stern: but the poorest of the peasantry...
[20:57] Aldo Stern: they have lives as hard and grim as a slave on a plantation
[20:58] Aldo Stern: they were freed from feudalism, but they are still unable to rise and live well
[20:58] Aldo Stern: something else will have to change...
[20:58] Aldo Stern: it is not simply enough to have liberty
[20:58] Aldo Stern: if one is still enslaved by poverty
[20:58] Oona Riaxik: yes
[20:58] Oona Riaxik: education is required
[20:59] Oona Riaxik: but who will provide that?
[20:59] Oona Riaxik: a lord will not like his tenants to be educated enough to live without him
[20:59] Oona Riaxik: the peasants are free in name but are still obliged to someone
[21:00] Aldo Stern: the jesuits were providing some of that...but they have been suppressed
[21:00] Aldo Stern: they only run their schools in Russia and Prussia now
[21:02] Oona Riaxik: Do know if the less afflutent students they have taught have bettered their lives after being educated?
[21:02] Oona Riaxik: or were they only more acutely aware of their wretchedness?
[21:02] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): *coughs and looks at the Professore* Herr Professor
[21:02] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): we have had an interesting discussion
[21:03] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): and we have come to the end of our time
[21:03] Diogeneia (diogenes.kuhr): but I fear we have no great answer
[21:03] Oona Riaxik: this will be a difficult question to resolve
[21:03] Oona Riaxik: perhaps we may speak of it again sometime
[21:04] Aldo Stern: yes, I agree we will have to have this discussion again sometime
[21:04] Oona Riaxik: thank you for sharing your thoughts and time
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updated by @aldo-stern: 06 Oct 2016 06:08:19AM
