Does anyone know of any movies that depict French Court life during the late 18th Century that one could watch to get a better feeling on how people conducted themselves at court? Preferably these movies would be in English or at least with English subtitles.
Would be a great help!
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There are also some french TV shows that are quite good, I am not sure if they were ever released in English or with subtitles. "Louis XV, le soleil noir" is good tv film about the life of Louis XV. There is also a nice TV series called "Nicolas Le Floch" which is set in the time of Louis XV, Nicolas is a noble man who help the police of the time solves mysteries and crimes, it is a really good show I find. Another good TV movie is "Jeanne Poisson, marquise de Pompadour".
For movies, I agree "Ridicule" is a great one. "The Perfume, the story of a murderer" is quite interesting too. "Beaumarchais l'insolent" could have been better, but it is still worth a look. "Le Libertin" is a good movie too, not set at court, but in a country chateau, it is a a comedy. There is also a some movie based on "Les liaisons dangereuses". The Marie-Antoinette by Sofia Coppola is worth a watch too, even though the story takes a lot of liberties with history.
That's all I can think of at the moment
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I would agree about "Ridicule," which although it is in affect a illustrative parable set in the court of Louis XVI, it is an historically plausible parable. It is described on Cliomuse.com (the excellent "history in the movies" review website) as follows
Although 'Ridicule' is set in the Versailles court of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette, the King plays only a small role in the movie, and Marie Antoinette is glimpsed only at a distance. Yet this brilliant film exposes the pretensions and hypocrisy of the monarchy and the French aristocracy more succinctly, subtly and effectively than either the 1938 'Marie Antoinette' or Sofia Coppola's more recent version. The film is historical drama at its best, combining historical accuracy and insight with a compelling love story and intriguing characters.
The film's clever plot focuses on Ponceludon, a minor aristocrat from the provinces, who is a resourceful scientist hoping to drain the region's mosquito-infested swamps in order tro ensure better health for the local peasants. This humanitarian project requires money which can only be obtained from King Louis XVI. But Ponceludon's decency and provincialism do not suit him for the intrigues of court, so he is tutored by a physician, Bellegarde, another minor noble (who has a beautiful, intelligent, scientifically-minded daughter) in the arts of ridicule and reparte needed to gain attention at Versailles. In order to get the King's endorsement of his swamp-draining project, Ponceludon is forced to engage in the vicious rivalries - sexual, political and financial - that contaminates the court.
Ridicule succeeds on many levels. It is witty and at times blackly humorous. The main characters are distinctive, interesting and unpredictable, and the two female leads are both presented as forceful and intelligent women. The portrayal of the King as an essentially decent wanting to do well by his subjects but unable to overcome the social conventions of his own court seems to be historically accurate. The fatal moral decay of that court is cleverly conveyed not by lingering on details of the extravagant lifestyle but by showing through speech and deed its lack of empathy and generosity. And the ending is a real cliffhanger.
There are also some very interesting additional articles on this page, including pieces about Louis XVI and his interest in science, and women in the Englightenment, and some clips (in French, no subtitles) which may be found at
http://www.cliomuse.com/ridicule.html
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I have one more to add even though not historically accurate. There are very few court scenes but I loved it for the costumes and some parts of the movie were shot at Versailles. "MozartSister."
http://movies.nytimes.com/2011/08/19/movies/mozarts-sister-from-rene-feret-review.html
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What! Du Barry , you 've got some 'splainin to do! LOL ;D
Wow I love the pics from this movie - http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wamXBBfvp90/STHmfHkZv7I/AAAAAAAAAHw/p52tmxtt1q8/s1600-h/dubarry3.png
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They are somewhat accurate...just interpreted in a 1930s way
Taken from the movie-s wiki.
"The movie had thousands of costumes and lavish set designs. Costume designer Gilbert Adrian visited France and Austria in 1937 researching the period. He stated that the 18th century was the most opulent in Fashion history and the costumes would reflect this. Although much artistic licence was taken, He studied the paintings of Marie Antoinette, even using a microscope on them so that the embroidery and fabric could be identical. Fabrics were specially woven and embroidered with stitches sometimes too fine to be seen with the naked eye.
The attention to detail was extreme, from the framework to hair. Some gowns became extremely heavy due to the amount of embroidery, flounces and precious stones used.Ms. Shearer's gowns alone had the combined weight of over 1,768 pounds, the heaviest being the wedding dress. Originally slated to be shot in color, many of the gowns were specially dyed. The fur trim on one of Ms. Shearer's capes was therefore sent out to be dyed the exact shade of her eyes."
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I alsoenjoy (tongue in cheek)this scene:
( Tommy Dorsey , Buddy Rich on drums and the whole band wearing powdered wigs and brocade costumes, as they play trombone, saxes, trumpets aso...)...A perfect example of the US' lack of inhibitions during the postwar years, along with bold look ties and cars in three colors with huge fins ...
Of course, we are moving further and further away from the initial question of Monsieur de Saint-Cyr: personally I do not trust much movie producers and directors for their search of accuracy: usually it's a superficial one, and even if they hire historical advisors, they rarely use the information they provide, because these are often in conflict with the main purpose of the movie, which is to entertain or interest acontemporary audience with the author's vision oftheSTORY ( and not HISTORY). If , for instance, actors spokethe same language as Courtiers( as it is revealed in Memoires and novels) and behaved as they daily did in Court, I think the movie would be a flop, so we can't blame the movie industry after all:-)
All this does not mean that the above-mentioned movies ( except the DuBarry was a Lady) are not interestingly accurate in some parts, but only that, being inspired by movies only for one's roleplay, will result in a partial success- or partial failure if you prefer. Information from the cinema have to be crossed with those obtained in books, mainly, but also Opera and Stage plays,some paintings... That's what I would personally do, ifmy desire was to be afirst rankroleplayer (whatI am decidedly not, as long as it has to be expressed in English:-)
Anyhow, thanks to all those who answered, and indicated us some movies I am tempted to discover myself ( my prefered period movies are not taking place in Versailles, maybe because I know less of the Courts outside France: Barry Lyndon, Amadeus...)
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Hey, Myron! Yes, that scene is really wonderful in its own twisted, anachronistic way. Tommy Dorsey's orchestra is one of my favorite Big Band era groups (I actually prefer them to Glenn Miller)...
And yes, this film certainly is not at all useful in terms of understanding 18th century history. But, as a film made in 1943 in the middle of WWII, it is a remarkable artifact of mid-20th century American culture. In effect, we can look at it as an extreme example of how any "historical film" is really most valuable for what it says about the time in which it was made, rather than the time period it seeks to recreate. It is interesting when you think about a silly, escapist film like "Du Barry was a Lady" being made in the U.S. in the same year that another silly, escapist film, "Munchhausen" was made in Germany ( and which may be viewed at ). I think it says something universal about the nature of what people need to get through dark and challenging times, regardless of their nationality. And that "something" is, more often than not, humor.
At the same time, I think you are entirely correct that we can find certain things in certain movies that can inform and -- more importantly -- inspire us in our attempts to explore and appreciate aspects of 18th century life and society. I also agree with you 100% that we have to look at a range of sources: yes, the combat scenes in "Barry Lyndon" are highly detailed and generally accurate representations of middle 18th century warfare (probably the best you can find on film). But you you will understand even more if you also look at period paintings and read books and personal accounts of military life and warfare in that period. I know that Dio Kuhr, who some of you will recall plays a character who is the widow of an officer in the Bayreuth Dragoons, drew a good bit of her rp detail and language from an 1827 translation of the memoirs of the Baroness von Riedesel ( http://pds.lib.harvard.edu/pds/view/2581667?n=2&s=4&printTh... ) Similarly when we were doing rp in Deadwood 1876, we read a lot of Mark Twain and period newspaper articles, simply to pick up the style of the language.
So that leads us to the next point-- in order to provide some real help to the original poster, are there certain books and plays that can help with guidance on language and manners, and some specific individual movie scenes that can be recommended for particular details on certain aspects of 18th century life, and provide inspiration for good engaging rp?
If I may offer a few suggestions myself, one of the scenes that I always draw inspiration from is the gambling scene with the faro game (and the subsequent duel) from "Barry Lyndon."
As for books that would provide some insight into court life, I would suggest something like the memoirs of Madame Jeanne Campan:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3891/3891-h/3891-h.htm
But for language, especially when one is looking for it in translation to English (but not adapted too much to modern English) what might you other knowledgeable folk suggest?
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As a personal suggestion, relating to language and private affairs more than to Court life ( but they were connected) I would strongly recommend the book "No Tomorrow", by Vivant Denon, translated by Lydia Davis in the paperback New York Review Books Classics edition( see Amazon for instance). Many reasons for this choice:
-It is a short story rather than a novel ( some 35 pages)
-Therefore the editor included both original French text and English translation: though translation is always a treason, thelatterseems to me, as far as I can judge, quite good and loyal, as close to the original French style as possible, both for meaning and musicality of language.
- This book has two main interests, in my opinion: it is one of the best exponents of the French rococo 18th century elegance of speech and language, at its peak. Secondly, it shows with grace and charm what I would call the mainstream libido of the upper classes in Enlightenment days, much better than a great book like Les Liaisons Dangereuses, which explores rather its fringes and darker, evil sides.
-It is not a demonstrative book: the author does not impose on the reader any personal views, morals or conclusions. It introduces us to an irresistible attraction and seduction game, typical of these times, between men and women. A game in which refined spoken language and body language are interacting. A game dedicated to mutual pleasure and sensuality on the spur of the moment, with No Tomorrow.
Three quotes here, to tease (hopefully) potential readersJ
PS: Dominique Vivant-Denon ( 1747-1825) was a baron and a man of many gifts and talents. His career as a diplomat, beginning under Louis XV and continued under Louis XVI reigns, brought him to Russia, Sweden, Switzerland and Italy, and later in Egypt with Napoleon Bonaparte. He published travelogues, and became an excellent draughtsman and engraver. He wrote Point de Lendemain (No Tomorrow), his only fiction novel, in 1777. His verbal ease and wit in Salons was renowned. During his travels he became a compulsive art and curiosities collector Finally, he became the first curator of the Louvre Museum in Paris, and one of the founding fathers of museology.
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very nice suggestion, Myron. The thing comes across most clearly from your quotes is the idea that these who people who loved language: they played with it, they had fun it, they treated speaking and writing as an art. For example you quote the lines:
"Kisses are like confidences: they attract each other, they accelerate each other, they excite each other. In fact, I had barely received the first kiss when a second followed upon its heels, and then another: their pace quickened, interrupting and then replacing the conversation.Soon they scarcely left us time to sigh. "
That is such a wonderful way of saying "We started kissing and couldn't stop. OMG, we kissed a lot."
It seems to me that what you are saying Myron, is that in addition to trying to recreate some of the details and structure of 18th century life, we should try to pay as much attention to what we say and how we say it. if we are going to emulate the best aspects of 18th century life, we should have fun with our language, to play with it, and paint pictures with it.
Another example I really enjoy, even though it is a 19th century translation, is the memoirs of the Marquise de Montespan (though a little earlier being memoirs of the time of the court of Louis XIV, they are still great fun to read). In this passage, Madame de Montepsan describes the circumstances around her arranged marriage in a way that is both utterly charming and hilarious:
"My mother occasionally took me out into society after the marriage of my sister....and I was not slow to perceive that there was in my person something slightly superior to the average intelligence,--certain qualities of distinction which drew upon me the attention and the sympathy of men of taste. Had any liberty been granted to it, my heart would have made a choice worthy alike of my family and of myself. They were eager to impose the Marquis de Montespan upon me as a husband; and albeit he was far from possessing those mental perfections and that cultured charm which alone make an indefinite period of companionship endurable, I was not slow to reconcile myself to a temperament which, fortunately, was very variable, and which thus served to console me on the morrow for what had troubled me to-day. Hardly had my marriage been arranged and celebrated than a score of the most brilliant suitors expressed, in prose and in verse, their regret at having lost beyond recall Mademoiselle de Tonnai-Charente. Such elegiac effusions seemed to me unspeakably ridiculous; they should have explained matters earlier, while the lists were still open. For persons of this sort I conceived aversion, who were actually so clumsy as to dare to tell me that they had forgotten to ask my hand in marriage!"
This is substantially much more fun to read than simply "I was married off to an unpredictable but acceptable dolt. You other dolts who were disappointed that I married this dolt should have said something sooner."
Her memoirs in English may be found here:
http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/gutbook/lookup?num=3847
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