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Saturday, May 26

[10:06] Aldo Stern: ((thank you for coming--it is good to see you all--as always please keep in mind that we are doing this discussion in the context of the year 1781--so exerccise your imagination and think like a person of the enlightenment!))

10:07] Myron Verne: Fencing and duels can be seen from many angles...which one should we start with?

[10:07] Aldo Stern: let me ask this first

[10:07] Aldo Stern: how many of you here have actually fought a duel..not frnedly fencing

[10:07] Aldo Stern: but a duel

[10:07] Aldo Stern: an affair of honor

[10:08] EllementaryPartical: shudders

[10:08] Mercury Gandt: Me, definitely

[10:08] Myron Verne: I did once, when i was younger

[10:08] JJ Drinkwater: I fought a duel once, but the weapons were...unusual

[10:08] Aldo Stern: yes

[10:08] Aldo Stern: that is always a possiblity

[10:08] Aldo Stern: may I ask why you each took part in a duel?

[10:09] Myron Verne: Mercury?

[10:09] Mercury Gandt: An unknown gentleman made insulting remarks on ladies in my presence

[10:09] JJ Drinkwater: A certain Colonel Somme impugned my behavior towards a duchess

[10:10] Aldo Stern: ahh

[10:10] Myron Verne: Personally, a courtier insulted my family...

[10:10] Aldo Stern: there is often the honor and dignity of a lady

[10:10] Aldo Stern: and family

[10:10] Myron Verne: I did want to challenge him, but could not keep it unnoticed

[10:11] Myron Verne: so I replied to him in the most sarcastic manner

[10:11] Aldo Stern: so...did all of you make the challenge?

[10:11] Myron Verne: and he challenged me to a duel, I could not go back

[10:11] Aldo Stern: rather than being the chllenged?

[10:11] Aldo Stern: ahhh I see

[10:12] Myron Verne: Nowadays i wouldn't act like this, but I was younger

[10:12] JJ Drinkwater: I was the challenged, not the challenger

[10:12] Aldo Stern: but you would have challenged under different circumstances?

[10:12] Myron Verne: Never

[10:12] Mercury Gandt: I was the challenger and I'm always prepared to be the challenger

[10:12] Aldo Stern: *smiles*

[10:12] Myron Verne: I am a Noble of the Enightenment, trying to put honor in its right place, after reason and humanity

[10:13] Aldo Stern: do any of you regret having taken part in the duel?

[10:13] JJ Drinkwater: Not in the least

[10:13] Myron Verne: I don't, but I wouldn't do it gain

[10:13] Mercury Gandt: Not at all, I would do the same

[10:13] Myron Verne: I won:-)

[10:13] Myron Verne: but did not kill him!

[10:13] Aldo Stern: that was an honorable thing to do

[10:14] Aldo Stern: as well as something far less complicated

[10:14] Aldo Stern: after all, in many places dueling is actually illegal

[10:14] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): I have also participated in a duel...or two in my younger days

[10:14] Aldo Stern: ANd if you kill someone, you can be tried for murder

[10:14] Myron Verne: exactly

[10:14] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): again a question of honour

[10:14] EllementaryPartical: times change and so do values

[10:15] Myron Verne: I would say this one of the reasons, duelling is so popular in the Nobility: because it's illegal!

[10:15] Aldo Stern: but we do have an interesting dichtomy here, don't we?

[10:15] Myron Verne: we have this gorgeous feeling of transgression:-)

[10:15] Aldo Stern: the church and the state, even Kings like Louis XVI, they disapproved of duelling

[10:15] Aldo Stern: they make rules and laws

[10:15] Aldo Stern: they try to stop it

[10:15] Myron Verne: yes, and duels still go on and on

[10:15] Aldo Stern: buton the other hand

[10:16] Aldo Stern: we have this strong sense of honor

[10:16] Aldo Stern: if someone refuses a challenge, they are looked down upon

[10:16] EllementaryPartical: mothers of the men killed by duelling may not see it that way

[10:16] Aldo Stern: and none of you regret your dueling episdoes

[10:16] Aldo Stern: a good point Signorina

[10:17] EllementaryPartical: inclines her head

[10:17] Aldo Stern: though there are also those mothers who like a spartan lady tell the son to come back with your shield or on it

[10:17] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): At the time I had no regrets....but in retropsect I think it would have been cleverer to avoid the conflict in the first place

[10:17] Aldo Stern: there are plenty of people in european society

[10:17] Aldo Stern: mostly the affluent, yes

[10:17] Aldo Stern: who would rather die than have dishonor

[10:18] Aldo Stern: or would rather see their son or husband die than be branded a coward or an outcast

[10:18] EllementaryPartical: back to my earlier comment .. values change

[10:18] Aldo Stern: we have very mixed feelings about duelling, don't we?

[10:18] JJ Drinkwater: Which leads me to ask...what is this thing "Honour"?

[10:18] Aldo Stern: ah, a very good question!

[10:18] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): excellent question

[10:19] Aldo Stern: what do you think it is Signor JJ?

[10:19] EllementaryPartical: or we would still be behaving like neolithic people

[10:19] JJ Drinkwater ponders....

[10:19] Candace Ducatillon: Honour is situational, and often has a different meaning for different individuals.

[10:19] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): and different cultures

[10:19] Candace Ducatillon: yes

[10:20] JJ Drinkwater: It has neither form nor extension....it is intangible....and yet people will die for it

[10:20] JJ Drinkwater: It is made of how a person is regarded by certain other people

[10:20] Aldo Stern: is it something within us, or external?

[10:21] EllementaryPartical: no two people feel the same, naturally ..

[10:21] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Both perhaps?

[10:21] Aldo Stern: ah...

[10:21] Candace Ducatillon: I think both also

[10:21] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): there is personal honour and then there is social honour

[10:22] Aldo Stern: so you could be regarded as honorable by the rest of society

[10:22] Aldo Stern: but internally, feel you are not so much?

[10:22] EllementaryPartical: what happens in our lives shapes us

[10:22] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): on a personal level it has to do with honesty and personal life standards

[10:22] JJ Drinkwater: Does a hermit, who lives alone, far from all society, have honour?

[10:22] Aldo Stern: perhaps that is between him and God

[10:22] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): certainly if he lives up to his own standards

[10:22] Mercury Gandt: ....and there is a thing like revenge... I feel revenge more, than any kind of honour, which, I often think I lack...

[10:23] JJ Drinkwater: Ah, is that honor, or faith?

[10:23] Aldo Stern: perhaps both

[10:23] Candace Ducatillon: But if you succeed in getting that revenge, then do you feel it an honour to yourself?

[10:23] Aldo Stern: as to have a sense of honour requries beliving in something

[10:23] EllementaryPartical: the fairer sex have much practice at turning away from trouble

[10:24] EllementaryPartical: sometimes we would like our men to do the same

[10:24] JJ Drinkwater: There is a saying "No man is a hero in the eyes of his valet" Does a gentleman care what the rabble think of him?

[10:24] Aldo Stern: well clearly one of the factors here is that if a man, like Mercury, for example, were to not accept a duel...

[10:24] Aldo Stern: society he wants to be a part of would reject him, would it not?

[10:25] Candace Ducatillon: likely

[10:25] Myron Verne: I think not

[10:25] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Yes but would that matter to Sior Gandt if he felt he had lived up to his own standard of honour?

[10:25] Myron Verne: it's diffrent for Nobles, and Mercury is not a Noble

[10:25] Aldo Stern: let us ask him

[10:25] Candace Ducatillon: hmmm, yes

[10:25] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Sior Gandt?

[10:26] Mercury Gandt: I'm confused, what is the question exactly?

[10:26] JJ Drinkwater: Military gentlemen also stand by their honour, most fiercely

[10:26] Aldo Stern: if you yourself were satisfied that you have acted honorably

[10:26] Aldo Stern: would it matter to you if high society thought you a coward?

[10:26] EllementaryPartical: i am sorry, i have to leave now

[10:27] JJ Drinkwater: Farewell, Madmae

[10:27] Myron Verne: Good Bye, Madame

[10:27] Aldo Stern: thank you fro taking part in the discussion

[10:27] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Buona sera Signora

[10:27] Aldo Stern: arrivderci

[10:27] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): It was apleasure to meet you

[10:27] Mercury Gandt: I would feel satisfied if I was able to be an opponent - if I win, that is a triumphant feeling, like a revenge fulfilled, but if I lose, I also feel satisfaction of some kind

[10:27] EllementaryPartical: please give my best to aph, if she comes along

[10:28] Aldo Stern: and in fact, you might get some sympathy from an attractive lady or two, no?

[10:28] Myron Verne: yes, what saves the Honor is not the victory, it is the fact that you duelled at your own peril

[10:28] Aldo Stern: we shall do so Signorina Elle

[10:28] Aldo Stern: a good point Don Myron

[10:28] Mercury Gandt: Not really - I try to hide my duels - but of course I have my opponent and the seconds who see how I behave

[10:28] Aldo Stern: it is remarkable how often the loser

[10:29] Aldo Stern: as long as he is not dead

[10:29] Aldo Stern: actually ends up getting the girl

[10:29] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Yes indeed

[10:29] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim) chuckles

[10:29] Myron Verne: I should not win so often, then * smiles*

[10:29] Aldo Stern: so let us talk about where this comes from

[10:29] Aldo Stern: the heritage of our mixed feelings

[10:29] Aldo Stern: that this is a bit barbaric

[10:29] Aldo Stern: and unreasonable

[10:30] Aldo Stern: and at the same time

[10:30] Aldo Stern: there are expectations

[10:30] Aldo Stern: and people show approval to those who take part

[10:30] Aldo Stern: and disapprovbal to those who refuse

[10:30] Aldo Stern: at least in certain circles

[10:31] Aldo Stern: is this part of our heritage of the judicial duel?

[10:31] Aldo Stern: that in the days before real laws

[10:31] Aldo Stern: a dispute would be settled by arms

[10:31] Aldo Stern: and God would give victory to the one in the right?

[10:32] Myron Verne: This was two or three centuries ago

[10:32] Myron Verne: i don't think it is the reason nowadays

[10:32] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): yes better than the trials by ordeal

[10:33] Aldo Stern: but do we still feel on some level that God will give victory to the one in the right?

[10:33] Aldo Stern: or does God favor he who has practiced with the foil more?

[10:33] Myron Verne: I don't think anyone still thinks this, in 1780

[10:33] JJ Drinkwater: It is rather for a gentleman to show how highly he values his honour, which is to say his reputation...is it not?

[10:33] Myron Verne: I think soo

[10:33] Aldo Stern: so then is it perhaps not so much about who is right...

[10:34] Aldo Stern: as the fact that both willingly take part?

[10:34] Myron Verne: exactly

[10:34] Myron Verne: for Nobles, it is defending three things

[10:34] Myron Verne: 1, their glorious name and its reputation

[10:35] Myron Verne: 2 the social high postion that is linked to this name, and all the ensuing privileges

[10:35] Myron Verne: 3 one's own self esteem

[10:35] Myron Verne: that's what I think

[10:35] Myron Verne: this is their only way to remain role models for the rest of society

[10:36] Myron Verne: the common people find this is chivalrous, in some way

[10:36] Aldo Stern: so ultimately we have duels not to actually settle issues

[10:36] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): do you think the rest of soceity sees them as Role models?

[10:36] JJ Drinkwater: So it seems we should now ask...what is Reputation?

[10:36] Aldo Stern: but to support and enhance how certain people are percived

[10:36] Aldo Stern: and perceive themselves

[10:37] Myron Verne: yes

[10:37] Aldo Stern: this is very interesting...

[10:37] Myron Verne: and this is linked to social ambition too

[10:37] Aldo Stern: two of the wisest men I know of

[10:37] JJ Drinkwater: A very good point, sir

[10:37] Aldo Stern: one is the american scientist Dr. Franklin

[10:37] Aldo Stern: and the other the legal Scholar Signor Beccaria

[10:38] Aldo Stern: Dr.. Franklin has said that dueling is pointless, precisely because it settles nothing

[10:38] Aldo Stern: but what we are saying is that it is meant to really settle nothing

[10:38] Aldo Stern: it is all about reputation and perception

[10:39] Aldo Stern: and Signor JJ has asked, what is reputation...

[10:39] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): another good question

[10:39] Myron Verne: and for some, it is for fun, also...

[10:39] Aldo Stern: well yes that too

[10:39] Myron Verne: they love the trill of danger, risking their lives, they enjoy killing

[10:39] Aldo Stern: but I know people who do some strange things for fun

[10:39] Myron Verne: but they are not the majority

[10:40] Aldo Stern: no

[10:40] Mercury Gandt feels himself a bit awkward and moves on his chair

[10:40] Aldo Stern: each time we injure another...especially when we kill, we diminish ourselves that much as well

[10:40] Aldo Stern: I think most people understand that on some level

[10:40] Aldo Stern: so they only injure or kill when necessary

[10:40] Aldo Stern: is reputation necessary?

[10:41] Candace Ducatillon: Reputation is a "tag" that follows individuals around based on what people perceive from what they have seen or heard

[10:41] Candace Ducatillon: Reputation is not necessary, but certainly can play a role.

[10:41] Aldo Stern: and it affects how others interact with you, no?

[10:41] JJ Drinkwater: Certain others

[10:41] Myron Verne: yes, and for nowadays Nobles, it is absolutely necessary

[10:42] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): On a business level a good reputation is vital

[10:42] Myron Verne: what else could they be proud of?

[10:42] JJ Drinkwater: why do you say it is necessary?

[10:42] Myron Verne: The Nobles do not have the right to work, at least in France

[10:42] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Ones reputation goes before one and affects how one is recieved

[10:42] Myron Verne: they are mostly idle courtiers

[10:43] Myron Verne: no great achievements

[10:43] Myron Verne: thay have only tie family name and reputation to sustain

[10:43] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Yes its a great waste that they are left idle

[10:43] JJ Drinkwater: This makes it sound like an idle amusement for idle people

[10:44] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): well in france it probably is

[10:44] Myron Verne: this name and reputation is what brought them where they are

[10:44] Aldo Stern: in effect you are syaing they have no other asset than their name?

[10:44] Aldo Stern: and in effect the reputation that goes with it?

[10:44] Myron Verne: most of the time, yes

[10:44] Aldo Stern: and so..this is all they can do to distinguish themselves?

[10:44] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): well they consume and produce nothing

[10:44] Myron Verne: it is the highest value they can assess

[10:44] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): they do not even look after the very estates that provide their incomes

[10:45] Myron Verne: true, Signor Conte

[10:45] Aldo Stern: here is anothe irony

[10:45] Myron Verne: with a few exceptions, like me:-))

[10:45] Aldo Stern: the ones who do have some purpose

[10:45] Aldo Stern: they go into the army

[10:45] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Of course Sior Verne. you would not be here otherwise

[10:46] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): you would be at the French court with a perfumed hankerchief

[10:46] Aldo Stern: they get bested in a battle and they surrender without too much thought

[10:46] JJ Drinkwater: Ah, the honour of military men is a different kind of reputation, is it not?

[10:46] Aldo Stern: so professionally, honor is not based on their combativeness

[10:46] Myron Verne: Greetings, lady Glenrothes

[10:46] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Hello Everyone!

[10:46] Aldo Stern: but personally, if you insult the fellow who just surrendered

[10:46] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Greetings Signora

[10:46] JJ Drinkwater: Welcome, m'lady

[10:46] Aldo Stern: he will probably fight you to the death over it

[10:46] Mercury Gandt: Greetings, Lady Maria

[10:46] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Thank you

[10:47] Myron Verne bows deeply

[10:47] Aldo Stern: Donna Maria,. good to see you

[10:47] Candace Ducatillon: Ah, your timing is perfect .... we are at the meat of the matter so to speak!

[10:47] MariaLouisa Muircastle: It is nice to see you too...all of you

[10:48] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Please, no need to remain standing on my account.

[10:48] Candace Ducatillon impressed by all the attentive gentlemen

[10:48] Aldo Stern: Donna Maria please take my chair

[10:48] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Thank you Aldo, that is most kind.

[10:49] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) is Online

[10:49] Aldo Stern: so anyway, we can say that reputation in a highly valued thing

[10:49] Aldo Stern: among the noblity

[10:49] Aldo Stern: among scholars

[10:49] Aldo Stern: among businessmen

[10:49] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): well also amongst the working class

[10:49] Aldo Stern: it affects how other treat you

[10:49] Aldo Stern: and if they are willing to interact with you or not

[10:49] Mercury Gandt: and among those who sit by a cards table...

[10:50] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): we would not go to a sword smith with a bad reputation for example

[10:50] Aldo Stern: but is dueling to protect one's reputation essential?

[10:50] Aldo Stern: or will it become less important?

[10:50] Myron Verne: i think a revealing thing happened recently

[10:50] Aldo Stern: oh?

[10:50] JJ Drinkwater: I think there will always be those who are touchy about their reputation

[10:50] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Yes Sior?

[10:50] Myron Verne: the Encycopedia of Diuderot and D'alembert

[10:51] Myron Verne: they have a special part on fencing

[10:51] Myron Verne: you all have seen the images

[10:51] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Yes indeed

[10:52] Myron Verne: it's about duels seen as a friendly and sporting practice

[10:52] Myron Verne: a physical exercise for fun

[10:52] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Isn't it illegal otherwise now?

[10:52] Myron Verne: and they, the philosophers, ...

[10:52] JJ Drinkwater: ( )

[10:52] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): But I fear that it will become fashionable to use pistols rather than the Foil

[10:52] Myron Verne: put the stress on this , rather than on the tradition of duels of honor, that they despise

[10:53] Myron Verne: I think this indicates the future trend about these matters

[10:53] JJ Drinkwater: Pistols will "level the ground" will they not?

[10:53] Aldo Stern: yes excatly

[10:53] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): and tend to be more permanent in their damage

[10:54] Aldo Stern: well here is a possiblity....as the middle class grows

[10:54] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): while before it was a combat...a competition of skill...now its become more serious

[10:54] Aldo Stern: their sons will want to demonstrate some of the same values as the nobility

[10:54] Aldo Stern: like duelling

[10:54] Myron Verne: you cannot have a friendly duel with pistols, hahahaha

[10:54] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Too true Myron

[10:54] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): exactly

[10:54] Aldo Stern: but not having thad the same level of instruction

[10:54] Aldo Stern: they do not do well with the sword

[10:55] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Fencing is an art....firing a pistol, not so much

[10:55] Aldo Stern: so the pistol allows them to protect their name and reputationwithout having the skill?

[10:55] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): They don't do much better with pistols either

[10:55] Myron Verne: I agree with lady Maria

[10:55] Aldo Stern: yes, but it does add a random element as well

[10:55] Aldo Stern: bad powder, a msifire

[10:55] JJ Drinkwater: You see a burgeoning of murder, Professore?

[10:55] Aldo Stern: then we are back to God having a hand in the outcome

[10:56] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): where as before the contest was judged on skill and sportsmanship -- now it has become more seriously about killing the other party

[10:56] Aldo Stern: perhaps, unless we find a way of convincing young men there are better ways of building and protecting one's reputation

[10:56] Myron Verne: clever remark, Conte

[10:56] Mercury Gandt: I couldn't imagine a world when no one has duels.... Imagine that you are insulted... humiliated... your face blushes and burns.... you feel uncomfortable for days and days... your soul is poisoned... and you can't challenge the other one because there is no such thing as a duel... I think it will be most unhealthy

[10:57] JJ Drinkwater: Your thoughts will turn instead to revenge, perhaps...

[10:57] Aldo Stern: *aside* or having the fellow poisoned

[10:57] Myron Verne: If you are stronger mentally than the insulting party, you will find the right answer, mercury

[10:57] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): I imagine that in the outre young hotheads will find other ways of showing off

[10:57] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): they will race, perhaps?

[10:58] JJ Drinkwater: Lady Sere, good day to you

[10:58] Myron Verne: Bongiorno Signora!

[10:58] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Buon giorno everyone.

[10:58] Aldo Stern: or..I am curious Signor JJ, when you had your duel you said it was with strange weapons?

[10:58] Aldo Stern: may i ask what you chose to use?

[10:58] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Buona sera Signora

[10:58] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Gentemen, please do sit down.

[10:58] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Hello Sere

[10:58] Aldo Stern: buona sera Signorina Sere

[10:59] JJ Drinkwater: It was duel of compliments..a contest of wit and courtesy

[10:59] Myron Verne: how unusual!

[10:59] Candace Ducatillon: Greetings Signorina Sere

[10:59] Myron Verne: and how clever!

[10:59] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): ahhh now that sounds very interesting

[10:59] Aldo Stern: what a splendid idea

[10:59] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Goodness Sir JJ, you must have excelled at that duel.

[10:59] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): and how was this contest judged?

[10:59] Mercury Gandt: Please have my seat, Lady Sere

[10:59] Mercury Gandt: I prefer pacing

[11:00] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): a contest of education and wit

[11:00] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): You're more than kind, Mr. Gandt. But I have just drawn a chair over.

[11:00] JJ Drinkwater: I am pleased to say I was the victor

[11:00] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Congratulations Sior

[11:00] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): but how was this competion judged?

[11:00] Myron Verne: the winner was decided when the other part was short on compliments?

[11:01] JJ Drinkwater: Ah! It was the time of year when money is raised for medical research...you know whereof I speak?So the audience voted with their wallets

[11:01] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): a good way to show ones opinion

[11:01] Aldo Stern: that is fascinating, a contest of wits..sadly it will never catch on among the nobility, as for so many of them, they would enter the fray only half-armed

[11:01] Myron Verne: ahahahahaha

[11:02] JJ Drinkwater: You are pleased to be droll, Professore...but there is something to what you say

[11:02] Myron Verne: May I tell you about the most clever pistol duel I heard about?

[11:02] JJ Drinkwater: Pray do!

[11:02] Aldo Stern: yes of course Don Myron

[11:03] Myron Verne: It was Commander Hornblower"s duel, an English officer in the Navy

[11:03] Myron Verne: he had been challenged to duel by a man, a pistol champion

[11:04] Myron Verne: he had the choice of the rules of the duel

[11:04] Myron Verne: so knowing he was far less good at pistol shooting

[11:04] Myron Verne: he chose to duel with the man at a distance of two yards

[11:05] Myron Verne: with only one bullet loaded in the two guns

[11:05] Aldo Stern: good lord!

[11:05] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Great courage

[11:05] Myron Verne: no one knew which one had the bullet in it

[11:05] Myron Verne: a very mathematical idea, to make the levels more even!

[11:06] Aldo Stern: yes, essentially 50/50

[11:06] Myron Verne: so the duel began... and his opponent fainted!

[11:06] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Do I dare ask the outcome of that duel?

[11:06] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Is that a sort of Russian Roulette?

[11:06] Myron Verne: Hornblower had won

[11:06] MariaLouisa Muircastle: LOL

[11:06] Myron Verne: yes, Maria

[11:06] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Hahaha!

[11:06] Aldo Stern: and without killing his opponet?

[11:06] JJ Drinkwater: A most clever concept

[11:07] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): I think a duel of Wits is a better course of action, and less likely to decimate our young men

[11:07] Mercury Gandt: Buon giorno, Baronessa

[11:07] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta): My apologies for being late

[11:07] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) curtsies respectfully

[11:07] Myron Verne: Greetings, Signora

[11:08] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Buon giorno, Lady Blitzen

[11:08] Aldo Stern: but back to Donna Maria's point that dueling is in fact illegal in many nations

[11:08] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta): Good afternoon

[11:08] Aldo Stern: and certainly killing another person is illegal

[11:08] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): May I pull a chair around for you?

[11:08] Aldo Stern: although the man who does so will often be pardoned

[11:08] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Hello

[11:08] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Greetings Signora

[11:09] Aldo Stern: My friend Signor Beccaria makes the point that someone who is willing to die in a duel, for whom honor and reputation is more important than life itself...

[11:09] Aldo Stern: threatening them with being hung or put in prison isn't much of a deterrent

[11:09] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Very true

[11:10] Aldo Stern: so if we did want to actualy discourage dueling, how could we do it?

[11:10] Myron Verne: Jail would be a much more efficient way

[11:10] JJ Drinkwater says drily "Such folk will always be among us"

[11:10] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Don't take the challenge?

[11:10] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): and those that insist on a duel will find somewhere private

[11:10] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Jail or a hefty fine

[11:10] JJ Drinkwater: Confiscation of their estates would do it...

[11:10] Aldo Stern: hmmm

[11:10] Myron Verne: what is the honor of ending up in jail?

[11:11] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Indeed

[11:11] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): or having to explain to ones parents why one has to pay a large fine

[11:11] Aldo Stern: all interesting ideas

[11:11] MariaLouisa Muircastle: A fine won't hurt enough, if the person is very rich

[11:11] Aldo Stern: but you know it crosses my mind...

[11:11] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Some could turn a jail sentwence into an honourable martyrdom

[11:11] Aldo Stern: perhaps the vulnerable spot here is the reputation...the position in society

[11:11] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): a fine....less easy

1:12] JJ Drinkwater: Make them an outlaw then, strip them of their titles...

[11:12] Aldo Stern: Aha! you know in certain german states,they don't want the nobles to engage in business

[11:12] Aldo Stern: and if you do, your title is taken away

[11:12] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): That would have more of an effect then death or jail

[11:12] Aldo Stern: it is proving very effective

[11:12] Aldo Stern: perhaps if as Signor JJ suggested, a deullist had his title taken away?

[11:12] MariaLouisa Muircastle: I think that is smart indeed

[11:12] Mercury Gandt: Greetings, dear Summer

[11:13] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Yes let the hothead son explain this to his parents

[11:13] Summer Serendipity: Bongiourno

[11:13] Aldo Stern: of course that will not deter those who are untitled

[11:13] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): there is nothing honourable in losing your title

[11:13] Summer Serendipity: dear Mercury

[11:13] Myron Verne: Oh Summer!

[11:13] Myron Verne: Bongiorno, Dear

[11:13] Summer Serendipity: Hello Myron

[11:13] Summer Serendipity: Candace

[11:13] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Buona sera Signora

[11:14] Candace Ducatillon: Greetings dear friend !

[11:14] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim) bows to Sumer

[11:14] Aldo Stern: it is good to see you Signorina Summer

[11:14] Summer Serendipity: Hello Maria ... Sere .. Aldo

[11:14] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless) nods to Summer.

[11:14] Summer Serendipity: thank you please excuse my interruption

[11:14] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Hello

[11:15] Summer Serendipity: so good to see you all again

[11:15] JJ Drinkwater: Wre were discussing punishment for duelists

[11:15] Myron Verne: we mean those who kill their opponents, not the En garde fencers! ahahaha

[11:16] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) smiles - and thinks of her en garde matches

[11:16] Aldo Stern: yes, there is a great difference between the sport of fencing and the act of dueling

[11:16] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Fencing in itself is an honourable sport

[11:17] Aldo Stern: as Don Myron will tell you practice in fencing actually builds discipline, self control

[11:17] Aldo Stern: but you look at duels and how they often play out without self control at work

[11:17] Aldo Stern: the blood is hot, the fellows hack at each other like mad tartars

[11:17] Myron Verne: yes, more of a catfight...

[11:18] Myron Verne: wild cats:-)

[11:18] Mercury Gandt: Merci beaucoup

[11:18] Aldo Stern: it would better to give them big clubs and let them bash at each other

[11:18] JJ Drinkwater: Better than clubs..give each a live goose...

[11:18] MariaLouisa Muircastle: LOL

[11:18] Candace Ducatillon: ((*nerf bats)

[11:19] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): There are other ways to do combat

[11:19] MariaLouisa Muircastle: No tickling with a feather, just throw the whole bird at them.

[11:19] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Boxing for example

[11:19] Aldo Stern: ah yes

[11:19] MariaLouisa Muircastle: ((LOL...Candace))

[11:19] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta): ((Laughs))

[11:19] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Bird throwing is an ancient and honourable art

[11:19] JJ Drinkwater grins

[11:20] Myron Verne: never tried this one, yet... interesting idea

[11:20] Candace Ducatillon: Bird Throwing ??

[11:20] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim) smiles

[11:20] MariaLouisa Muircastle: *snickers

[11:20] Aldo Stern: having been around geese a good bit in my childhood

[11:20] Aldo Stern: I can say that this is an interesting plan

[11:20] Aldo Stern: but unnecessarily cruel

[11:20] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): you will be aware of how vicious they can be

[11:21] Aldo Stern: yes, it is cruel not to the geese, which are after all, insufferable monsters

[11:21] Aldo Stern: but to the duelists

[11:21] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): exactly

[11:21] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): hahaha

[11:21] Myron Verne smiles

[11:21] JJ Drinkwater: It would be all the more likely to discourage them, then

[11:21] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): geese are well able to defend themselves

[11:21] Aldo Stern: a good point signor JJ

[11:21] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): and more likely than not to start the fight

[11:21] Aldo Stern: by the way, I had shared around the 26 rules of the Clonmel Code Duello

[11:22] Aldo Stern: did any of you find anything particularly of interest in those?

[11:22] JJ Drinkwater: I was quite lost halfway through the rules

[11:22] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta): There were rules of rules

[11:22] Aldo Stern: they are quite elaborate aren't they?

[11:23] MariaLouisa Muircastle: I wonder how often they were truly followed to the letter.

[11:23] Candace Ducatillon: rules of rules ... (thinks of Tristram Shandy ... thoughts all over the place))

[11:23] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): I used to be more familiar with them

[11:23] Don Alejandro de Padilla (colosodorado88): greetings

[11:23] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): but have forgotten

[11:24] Mercury Gandt: Good day, Don Alejandro

[11:24] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Greetings Signore

[11:24] Myron Verne: Greetings, Don Alejandro

[11:24] Aldo Stern: hola Don Alejandro please join us

[11:24] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Hello Don Alejandro

[11:25] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Don Alejandro, you are welcome to join the discussion. Please take one of the empty chairs.

[11:25] Aldo Stern: but at any rate we were speaking of the rules of duelling that were devleoped by the irish gentlemen at the Clonmel assizes in 1777

[11:25] Aldo Stern: and as Signor JJ points out

[11:25] Aldo Stern: they are rather complex

[11:26] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): which exlains why I forgot them

[11:26] Aldo Stern: I do suspect a great deal of drinking was invovled in the creative process

[11:26] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) laughs

[11:26] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): maybe one needs to drink to understand

[11:26] Candace Ducatillon: lol

[11:26] Myron Verne: coffee won't do

[11:27] Aldo Stern: no it would be the distilled spirits that the irish habitually drink

[11:27] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): ahh no...I suspect it must be wiskey

[11:27] Myron Verne: I think the rules were different according to countries

[11:27] Myron Verne: and the opponents had the liberty to agree on modifications

[11:27] Aldo Stern: yes, but this irish Code Duello became the basis for the rules in other countries with some variatons of course

[11:28] Aldo Stern: but why go to the effort of making such rules when what is likely to happenis that the blood runs hot

[11:28] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Ah, leave it to the Irish

[11:28] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): a hot blooded passionate people

[11:28] Aldo Stern: the fighters get to hacking and fight on, even with broken blades

[11:29] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): so I have heard

[11:29] JJ Drinkwater: The rules put a veneer of civilization on the thing, I suppose

[11:29] Aldo Stern: why try to put the veneer of civilization on what is a brutal act

[11:30] JJ Drinkwater: For the vanity of the class which duels, perhaps?

[11:31] Aldo Stern: perhaps...or is it accepting the fact that even despite laws against it

[11:31] Aldo Stern: that we can't stop fellows from dueling

[11:31] Aldo Stern: so do we try to mitigate it

[11:31] Aldo Stern: we accept the reality and try to keep it under control

[11:31] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): there will always be hotheaded young men looking for an excuse to fight and show off

[11:32] Aldo Stern: a lot of the rules seem to be desgined to try to prevent unncessary deaths

[11:32] JJ Drinkwater: A deep question, Professore

[11:32] Myron Verne: Well, I am so sorry I have to leave, Ladies and Gentlemen... I hope you will have excused the "rough on the edge" English of a French Baron:-)

[11:32] Myron Verne: It was very enlightening, and a very pleasant company

[11:32] Summer Serendipity: awww Myron, so sorry to see you leave

[11:32] JJ Drinkwater: Farewell, Sir

[11:32] Candace Ducatillon: ((just read back ... broken blades ... gringes))

[11:33] Aldo Stern: Don Myron it was good to have you with us

[11:33] Myron Verne: I hope to see you soon on the Pistes of En Garde!

[11:33] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): It was a pleasure to meet you Sior Verne

[11:33] MariaLouisa Muircastle: It has been good to see you again, Myron...as always

[11:33] Aldo Stern: next week, yes?

[11:33] Myron Verne: Farewell!

[11:33] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): I hope to see you on the Pistes

[11:33] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Au revoir

[11:33] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Buona Sera

[11:34] sevilla Abbot: oh good evenings

[11:34] Mercury Gandt: Your Highness, welcome

[11:34] sevilla Abbot: i am sorry if i am late

[11:34] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Buona Sera magesta

[11:34] Aldo Stern: Principessa!

[11:34] Aldo Stern: welcome

[11:34] Don Alejandro de Padilla (colosodorado88): greetings

[11:34] sevilla Abbot: sorry I am coming late

[11:35] sevilla Abbot: Lady goodnight Glenrothes

[11:35] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) nods to the later arrivals and smiles

[11:35] Aldo Stern: that is quite alright , Highness

[11:35] sevilla Abbot: Professore?

[11:35] Aldo Stern: we are pleased to have you join us

[11:35] Aldo Stern: we are talking about dueling

[11:35] sevilla Abbot: oh thanks you always so kind

[11:35] sevilla Abbot: oh yes i read the note

[11:35] Candace Ducatillon: Greetings

[11:35] Aldo Stern: may I ask do you ever have duels in Amalfi, or has your good husband the Principe outlawed it?

[11:35] sevilla Abbot: please take a seat

[11:35] Summer Serendipity: Buenos Noches Princess

[11:36] sevilla Abbot: oh we never have the dueling

[11:36] sevilla Abbot: with your permission Lady Ancasta

[11:37] Aldo Stern: and again, even though Don Myron has left I will again point out on his behalf as a fencing master,that when we say dueling

[11:37] Aldo Stern: we do not mean friendly fencing for sport and exercise

[11:37] Aldo Stern: we mean a serious challenge in which a man

[11:38] Aldo Stern: or even now and then a lady

[11:38] Aldo Stern: fights another to protect honor and reputation

[11:38] Aldo Stern: possibly to the death

[11:39] Aldo Stern: may I ask, since we now have so many ladies here

[11:39] Aldo Stern: have any of you ever fought a duel?

[11:39] Aldo Stern: and if not..would you as a lady ever consder doing so?

[11:39] Candace Ducatillon: only in my mind

[11:39] Aldo Stern: ha! Donna Candace

[11:40] Aldo Stern: it would be impolite for us to ask about the circumstances

[11:40] Aldo Stern: but seriously, I know some of you ladies fence...

[11:40] Aldo Stern: would you consider a serious duel for honor?

[11:41] Candace Ducatillon: yes, I think it possible

[11:41] MariaLouisa Muircastle: I fence but would never duel. I would hope my ego is not so large as to be easily offended.

[11:41] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta): I would, if someone offended me that much

[11:42] MariaLouisa Muircastle: I still would not. I value you life too highly.

[11:42] Aldo Stern: that is interesting

[11:42] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Mainly because I've had to fight so much in the past for it.

[11:42] Aldo Stern: *nods*

[11:42] Candace Ducatillon: Now that Maria has said that ... I realize I could not duel to the death.

[11:43] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta): No, it would be a duel for 'first blood'

[11:43] Candace Ducatillon: ... just to make a "point"

[11:43] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta): Honour would be satisfied

[11:43] sevilla Abbot: ah

[11:44] Aldo Stern: this all very interesting

[11:44] Aldo Stern: may I then ask the question of the gentlemen present...

[11:44] Aldo Stern: how would you regard a lady who was willing to fight a duel?

[11:45] Aldo Stern: even if only to "first blood"

[11:45] JJ Drinkwater: With some trepidation!

[11:45] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) hides her grin behind her fan

[11:45] Candace Ducatillon liking this question

[11:45] JJ Drinkwater: Well, are the ladies not sensitive as to their honour?

[11:46] JJ Drinkwater: As much so as the gentlemen?

[11:46] MariaLouisa Muircastle: That is what the gentlemen are for...LOL

[11:46] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): I would admire her, even though I suspect society would frown

[11:46] MariaLouisa Muircastle whispers: j/k

[11:46] Aldo Stern: well Donna maria, you said so in jest

[11:46] Aldo Stern: but is that not actualy true for many women?

[11:47] Aldo Stern: I can think of plenty of court ladies who if offended would be more than happy to have some fellow risk getting punctured on her behalf

[11:47] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Yes, but again...is there really any honor in it? Wounded pride is more the case...

[11:47] Don Alejandro de Padilla (colosodorado88): please excuse me , i must leave

[11:47] Candace Ducatillon: Farewell Sir

[11:47] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Ciao

[11:47] Mercury Gandt: Goodbye, Don Alejandro

[11:47] Aldo Stern: arrividerci Don Alejandro

[11:47} Aldo Stern: and what if the lady were to challenge a man? what would you think?

[11:47] Mercury Gandt: well if I were the man, after a hesitation, I would accept her challenge - perhaps because of respecting her dignity

[11:47] JJ Drinkwater: Ah, but would a gentleman not be bound by courtesy to let a lady win?

[11:47] Aldo Stern: I must say I have a certain level of admiration for a lady who would take it into her own hands to protect her own reputation and honorand not leave the danger to some surrogate

[11:48] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): and as fathers, brothers and husbands are we not expected to be prepared to find for the reputation of our ladies?

[11:48] Aldo Stern: yes of course

[11:48] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Yes, but not all women have such family...so we must grant that

[11:48] Candace Ducatillon: "let a lady win" ... such a dilemma ?

[11:48] Aldo Stern: but still that does not keep me from admiring the lady who takes on her own role in that

[11:49] Aldo Stern: if they have the ability and skill..say as your Daughter the Contessa does

[11:49] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): I am proud of my daughter's skills in fencing but greatly hope she would not get herself involved in a duel

[11:49] Candace Ducatillon: Yes, with the ability , skill, and desire ... it would be most admirable to either gender I would think.

[11:50] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Again, I don't see much that is admirable in dueling

[11:50] Candace Ducatillon: so very thought provoking this all is.

[11:50] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Fighting simply because your pride or "honor" is wounded in some way...it's silly

[11:51] Mercury Gandt: You choose enduring it, instead, Mylady?

[11:51] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): indeed

[11:51] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Yes...I've seen enough bloodshed in my life, Monsieur

[11:51] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): honour on its own has little meaning unless it represents certain standards of behaviour

[11:51] Candace Ducatillon: pride can often be deadly in and of itself

[11:51] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Exactly, Conte

[11:51] Aldo Stern: this is very true

[11:51] Candace Ducatillon: Honour is in another category

[11:51] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Indeed CAndace

[11:52] Candace Ducatillon: ... somehow

[11:52] Aldo Stern: Signor JJ mentioned vanity as a motivation for dueling at one point

[11:52] Aldo Stern: it is after all, a deadly sin

[11:52] Aldo Stern: in this case, literally so

[11:52] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) nods

[11:52] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Vanity...that is the word I was looking for!

[11:52] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): and I would hope that one would be able to either avoid such quarells or as the gentleman said before use ones wits rather than tne foil

[11:52] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): and there is a great difference between honour and Vanity

[11:52] MariaLouisa Muircastle: A duel of wits is very entertaining

[11:52] Mercury Gandt: And those poor souls who have no wits?

[11:53] MariaLouisa Muircastle: But often the two are tied closely together Conte

[11:53] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): they should avoid fencing at all cost

[11:53] Summer Serendipity: have no sword lol

[11:53] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim) smiles at the gentleman

[11:53] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): but those who want to fight will find a way

[11:53] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): even if its just using their fists

[11:54] MariaLouisa Muircastle: of course

[11:54] Aldo Stern: ah, you know Signorina Summer, that is one idea that has been put forth... that if gentlmen did not all wear swords

[11:54] Aldo Stern: they would not be so readily inclined to fight with them

[11:54] Summer Serendipity: yes

[11:55] Candace Ducatillon: they serve a decorative purpose also ...

[11:55] Aldo Stern: but that may be a straw man...for after all it is not the sword that kills a man

[11:55] Aldo Stern: it is the man wielding the sword

[11:55] Aldo Stern: free will and all that

[11:55] Summer Serendipity: and where there is a will there is a way ...

[11:55] Summer Serendipity: so any weapon will serve its purpose

[11:55] Candace Ducatillon: yet, men seem to be drawn to "battle"

[11:56] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Young men

[11:56] Summer Serendipity: the commaraderie of it all

[11:56] Summer Serendipity: lol

[11:56] Candace Ducatillon: women are more drawn to "discuss"

[11:56] JJ Drinkwater: The ladies have their chosen weapons, I am sure

[11:56] Aldo Stern: ah yes, I have met some women in this world who have tongues sharper than any epee

[11:57] MariaLouisa Muircastle: True, Candace, unless a knife or sword or other weapon is held directly at your person

[11:57] Candace Ducatillon: absolutely Maria

[11:57] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Then we will fight for our lives

[11:57] Candace Ducatillon: yes

[11:57] Candace Ducatillon: or children

[11:57] MariaLouisa Muircastle: yes

[11:57] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) nods

[11:58] Aldo Stern: well this has been a truly interesting discussion

[11:58] JJ Drinkwater: It would be a vastly different world if ladies went armed, we may be sure...the mind boggles to think of it

[11:58] Summer Serendipity: lol

[11:58] Aldo Stern: does anyone have any further points (no pun intended) they wish to make?

[11:58] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): sharper than an Epeee and more deadly

[11:58] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Ah, but we are often armed Sir...more than you know

[11:58] MariaLouisa Muircastle: LOL...Aldo

[11:58] Mercury Gandt: Just remember this warning:

[11:59] Mercury Gandt: There will be much more suffering more in a world without duels

[11:59] JJ Drinkwater bows to Lady Glenrothes

[11:59] Candace Ducatillon: Hmmm, Mercury

[11:59] Aldo Stern: an interesting idea Signor Gandt

[12:00] Aldo Stern: do you wish to elaborate?

[12:00] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): without the healthy outlet of a duel?

[12:00] Mercury Gandt: If I feel hurt, a duel is a short, effective way to close the case, and in the end, maybe I shake hands with my opponent

[12:00] Mercury Gandt: On the other hands, if no duels at all...

[12:01] Mercury Gandt: I will suffer (yes, my vanity),

[12:01] Mercury Gandt: and I think about him/her as an enemy - forever perhaps?

[12:01] Mercury Gandt: Without this simple solution

[12:01] Candace Ducatillon: Do you mean as if one keeps their anger inside , without finding an appropriate outlet?

[12:01] Mercury Gandt: Yes exactly

[12:02] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta): It is also a mark of a gentleman of good breeding - a fight in the bar is so undignified, a duel much more interesting

[12:02] Candace Ducatillon: ty

[12:02] Summer Serendipity: I fear I must take my leave now.... this has been so very pleasant sitting with you all again....

[12:02] Aldo Stern: it has been very good to have you with us

[12:02] Candace Ducatillon: ... and pleasant to have you among us.

[12:02] Aldo Stern: thank you for coming Signorina

[12:02] Summer Serendipity: thank you so much for the stimulating conversation and discussion

[12:02] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Take care Summer

[12:02] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Arriverderci Signora

[12:03] Summer Serendipity: have a lovely day to all of you...

[12:03] Mercury Gandt: See you Summer

[12:03] Summer Serendipity: bye

[12:03] JJ Drinkwater: Farewell, Madame

[12:03] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) nods - Good Day

[12:03] Summer Serendipity is Offline

[12:03] Aldo Stern: so back to Signor Gandt's point

[12:03] Aldo Stern: that this is a useful outlet for emotions and bad blood

[12:04] Aldo Stern: then we are back to the idea that rules like the code duello are important to keep it from becoming mere butchery?

[12:04] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): It would seem a useful outlet only if one of the parties are not seriously wounded.

[12:04] Candace Ducatillon: *cringes at the word butchery

[12:05] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Then really, it would be simply sparing

[12:05] JJ Drinkwater: With all repect to Mr Gandt...what of the loss of life?

[12:05] MariaLouisa Muircastle: which to me is more acceptable

[12:06] Mercury Gandt: I don't think about loss of life intentionally - yes, accidents may happen, unfortunately

[12:06] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Yes are there not other, less harmful forms of outlets for one's anger?

[12:07] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Truly there must be

[12:07] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Geese throwing sounded good

[12:07] MariaLouisa Muircastle: LOL

[12:07] Candace Ducatillon: not for the geese though !

[12:07] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Good luck getting a hold of one

[12:07] Candace Ducatillon: lol

[12:07] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Ohh the geese give as good as they get

[12:08] MariaLouisa Muircastle: to throw it in the first place

[12:08] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): exactly

[12:08] MariaLouisa Muircastle:

[12:08] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) chuckles

[12:08] Aldo Stern: well if you grab one, you've already demonstrated your degree of bravery

[12:08] Candace Ducatillon: yes indeed!

[12:08] Aldo Stern: and perhaps lack of common sense[12:08] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Sior gandt I can imagine a future where duelling as we understand it will be a thing of the past

[12:09] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): but surelly there will be other competitions available to pitch one man against another

[12:09] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): I think sports will take over

[12:09] Mercury Gandt: And what would you do with me, Signore Conte, in the future, if I insulted you by a remark?

[12:09] MariaLouisa Muircastle: So, Monsieur Gandt, you feel no remorse at taking another's life?

[12:09] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): Well we could play tennis

[12:10] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): we could box?

[12:10] Mercury Gandt: I wouldn't take another"s life intentionally - I just want to see his blood, a small sample of it, that's all

[12:10] MariaLouisa Muircastle: And this gives you satisfaction?

[12:10] Mercury Gandt is looking right into Lady Glenrothes' eyes deeply: Yes, that would give me satisfaction

[12:10] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): if you box and hit your opponent right you will draw blood

[12:11] Aldo Stern: well that's the good thing about dueling with the small sword..

[12:11] Aldo Stern: you can be pierced mutliple times, and as long as a major artery or organ isn't hit, you can function quite well for a while and probbly recover nicely, but there's still plenty of blood spilled

[12:11] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): you should try it...most satisfying

[12:12] MariaLouisa Muircastle hand aches at the memory of breaking a few noses in the past

[12:12] JJ Drinkwater makes a note not to get on Lady Glenrothes' wrong side

[12:12] Aldo Stern: very well

[12:12] Aldo Stern: signore e signori

[12:12] Aldo Stern: thank you , I myself am going to go to the pistes

[12:12] MariaLouisa Muircastle: *Gives Mercury a sad smile in return

[12:13] Mercury Gandt: ((lol, I thought you mean my nose to break...))

[12:13] Sere Timeless (serenek.timeless): Thank you for leading such a stimulating discussion Professore.

[12:13] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta) thinks about her blades needing another airing

[12:13] Aldo Stern: this has been an excellent conversation

[12:13] Aldo Stern: many different viewpoints and ideas

[12:13] Conte Fillipe Foscari (nero.shim): It has indeed

[12:13] MariaLouisa Muircastle: I've thoroughly enjoyed it

[12:13] JJ Drinkwater: Indeed, thank you, Professore

[12:13] Mercury Gandt: Thank you very much, Professore, for the notecards, too

[12:13] Aldo Stern: I have enjoyed it immensely and I hope all of you have as well

[12:13] MariaLouisa Muircastle: Thank you all

[12:14] Aldo Stern: milie grazie

[12:14] MariaLouisa Muircastle: I hope you all have a wonderful afternoon/evening

[12:14] Wulfrie Blitzen (ancasta): thank you all

If anyone ever doubts the seriousness and the adequate medical skills of my 18th century colleagues, well... they have every right to do so. In my continuous journey into the History of Ancient Medicine, i found a splendid article concerning a famous 18th century medical Hoax.

Let me raise the curtains of the stage and present you the curious case of Mary Toft, the woman who gave births to... rabbits...

The Curious Case of Mary Toft (1726)

In September 1726, news reached the court of King George I of the alleged birth of several rabbits to Mary Toft (1703-1763) of Godalming, near Guildford, in Surrey.

Toft was a twenty-five year old illiterate servant, married to Joshua Toft, a journeyman clothier. According to reports, despite having had a miscarriage just a month earlier in August 1726, Mary had still appeared to be pregnant. On September 27th, she went into labour and was attended initially by her neighbour Mary Gill, and then her mother in law Ann Toft. She gave birth to something resembling a liverless cat.

The family decided to call on the help of Guildford obstetrician John Howard. He visited Mary the next day where he was presented with more animal parts which Ann Toft said she had taken from Mary during the night. The following day, Howard returned and helped deliver yet more animal parts. Over the next month Howard recorded that she began producing a rabbit's head, the legs of a cat, and, in a single day, nine dead baby rabbits.

Howard sent letters to some of England's greatest doctors and scientists and the King's secretary, informing them of the miraculous births.

The curious King dispatched two men to investigate to see what they could ascertain about this case: Nathaniel St. Andr, Swiss surgeon-anatomist to the King and Samuel Molyneux, secretary to the Prince of Wales.

By now, news had spread and Mary was a local celebrity which necessitated moving her from Godalming to nearby Guildford so that she could be monitored more closely by John Howard. On November 15th St. Andr and Molyneux arrived at Howard's home in Guildford and were immediately greeted with the news that Mary was in labour with her fifteenth rabbit. Toft gave birth to several more dead rabbits in their presence.

The doctors conducted examinations on the lungs and other internal organs of these rabbits, the results of which showed that they probably did not develop inside Mary's womb. St. Andr, however, still seemed convinced that her case was genuine. He believed that these were indeed supernatural births, and took some of the rabbit specimens back to London to show the King and the Prince of Wales.

As the story of Mary Toft quickly spread through London, the King decided to send a German surgeon, Cyriacus Ahlers, and his friend Mr. Brand to Guildford to investigate the matter further. Ahlers examined Mary and witnessed several of her rabbit births; however, he was not convinced. On examination of the rabbit parts he had taken back to London, Ahlers found that the dung pellets in the rectum of one of the rabbits contained corn, hay and straw, which proved that it could not have developed inside Mary. Ahlers reported back to the King on November 21st that he suspected a hoax with Mary Toft and John Howard in collusion and showed these rabbit specimens as evidence.

Meanwhile, Sir Richard Manningham (1690-1759) - an eminent doctor and midwife among upper class society in London - was contacted by St Andr to attend upon Mary Toft. After observing her and seeing her give birth to what he believed was a hog's bladder, he also seemed unconvinced. But he was persuaded to keep his doubts to himself by Howard and St. Andr until there was proof of any fraud. Howard and St. Andr were trying to save their reputations in the light of what Ahlers had concluded.

The story came to the attention of the press and caused a national sensation. Interest in monstrosities and willingness to pay to see them was common in Europe in the mid 18th century. It is not hard to see why a poor family like the Tofts saw a way to make money with what seems, at first, a ridiculous scheme, as monstrous or deformed people had been exhibited, at a price, all over Europe for hundreds of years, with poor and wealthy alike equally fascinated.

Mary Toft's explanation for her strange births was that, in April 1726, she had been working in a field and was startled by a rabbit. She, and another woman, ran after it, and but could not catch it. They also failed to catch another rabbit that they had chased. "That same Night she dreamt she was in a Field with those two Rabbets in her Lap, and awakened with a sick Fit, which lasted till Morning; from that time, for above three months, she had a constant and strong desire to eat Rabbits, but being very poor and indigent could not procure any."

St Andr published his account of the affair, A Short Narrative of an Extraordinary Delivery of Rabbets on 3rd December 1726. Dr. James Douglas (1675-1742), the respected anatomist and man midwife, read the draft of this book and declared it 'nothing but a collection of impossibilities'.

'Maternal impression', according to medical theory, was a phenomenon that explained the existence of birth defects and congenital disorders. The theory was that an emotional stimulus experienced by a pregnant woman (such as Mary's rabbit dreams and her desire for rabbit meat) could influence the development of the foetus. Mental problems, such as depression or schizophrenia were believed to be a manifestation of similar feelings in the mother. For instance, a woman who experienced great sadness whilst pregnant might imprint depressive tendencies onto the foetus she was carrying.

A famous example of this theory is the case of Joseph Merrick (1862-1890), the so-called Elephant Man.He wrote in his autobiographical pamphlet 'The deformity which I am now exhibiting was caused by my mother being frightened by an Elephant; my mother was going along the street when a procession of Animals was passing by, there was a terrible crush of people to see them, and unfortunately she was pushed under the Elephant's feet, which frightened her very much; this occurring during a time of pregnancy was the cause of my deformity'. The fact that he was able to say this as if it were a literal fact is quite a telling example of how many people still believed in this theory in the mid to late 19th century. Five months after the Mary Toft affair was exposed as a hoax, James Blondel published his The Strength of Imagination in Pregnant Women Examin'd in which he challenged the belief in the prenatal influence of the imagination. The debate he started continued well into the next century.

On November 29th, Mary Toft was brought to Lacy's Bagnio (bath house) in London's Leicester Fields, where she could be observed more closely. St Andr contacted Dr. James Douglas and asked him to come to the bagnio to observe Mary's rabbit births.

By the time Douglas arrived, he found himself in the company of a large crowd of doctors and medical men who had been summoned by St. Andr. Unfortunately for St. Andr, who was desperate to have Douglas validate the rabbit births, Douglas believed the whole affair to be a fraud.

Between 30th November and 3rd December, opinion was divided among the medical men gathered there. Mary produced no more new rabbits, but continued to appear to go into labour. She was also badly infected and had fits which made her lose consciousness.

Shortly thereafter, a porter at Mr. Lacy's bagnio was caught trying to sneak a rabbit into Mary Toft's room. He confessed to Douglas and Manningham that Margaret Toft (Mary's sister-in-law) had asked him to procure the smallest rabbit he could find. Manningham and Douglas were determined to obtain a confession of guilt from Mary but decided to see if she would incriminate herself. They didn't have long to wait as she went into labour on 4th December but produced nothing. On that evening they called Sir Thomas Clarges, Justice of the Peace, to the bagnio. The porter, Thomas Howard, swore a deposition before him and Clarges immediately took Mary into custody for questioning but she would admit nothing. Over the next two days, much pressure was put upon her to confess but Mary held out until Sir Richard Manningham threatened to perform painful experimental surgery on her to see if she was formed differently from other women. Toft was forced to admit on 7th December 1726 that she had manually inserted dead rabbits into her vagina and then allowed them to be removed as if she were giving birth.

In several different confessions, she implicated a mysterious stranger, the wife of the organ grinder, her mother in law, and John Howard.

On the 9th December, Mary Toft was charged with being a "Notorious and Vile Cheat" and sent to Bridewell prison where, allegedly, she was exhibited to large, curious crowds by her warders.

In the aftermath of the hoax, the medical profession suffered a great deal of mockery for what the public viewed as its gullibility. On December 9th, St. Andr had an advertisement published in the Daily Journal to try and vindicate his own behaviour.

Doctors responded to the Toft affair in print as many were concerned that the episode had damaged the reputation, not only of the doctors involved, but of the profession as a whole.

One of the many tracts and pamphlets that appeared during the saga was The Anatomist Dissected by 'Lemuel Gulliver'. Jonathan Swift had published his satire Gulliver's Travels in 1726. This pamphlet claims that Lemuel Gulliver - "Surgeon and Anatomist to the Kings of Lilliput and Blefescu, and Fellow of the Academy of Sciences in Balnibarbi" - is its author.

The case also proved to be irresistible to contemporary artists. In this satirical print, William Hogarth pokes fun at the incompetence of the early 1700s medical profession. All the main characters in the Toft saga are featured, the doctors being shown as ignorant and credulous fools.

Many Britons were angry about the Hanoverian King's preference for German- speaking courtiers and physicians. This is amply demonstrated by the plethora of pamphlets and drawings that appeared in the wake of the Toft scandal, ridiculing St. Andr and the German court physicians and depicting them as gullible or, even worse, as charlatans.

Public interest in the case died out by around January of the following year, but the repercussions continued for those involved. For Sir Richard Manningham and James Douglas there had been temporary embarrassment regarding their close connection with the affair but their careers and reputations were secure.

St Andr , however, lost favour with the court and, as his reputation plummeted, his patients deserted him. He retired from London and eventually died in poverty in an almshouse in Southampton. John Howard had to answer charges of being concerned in the 'Cheat and Conspiracy of Mary Toft' but the case against him was dropped and he remained a respected figure in Guildford.

As for Mary Toft, the case against her was dismissed, not for lack of proof of guilt, but probably because of the further embarrassment to the establishment that would ensue if the case were pursued any further. She spent a few months in jail then returned to relative obscurity. In the years that followed the scandal, the Duke of Richmond (who had a residence near Godalming) sometimes showed her at dinner parties for the curiosity of his guests. In April 1740 Mary was charged with receiving stolen goods and committed to the House of Correction in Guildford but was later acquitted by the jury. She died on 13th January 1763. The London papers' obituary columns announced her death alongside those of peers and statesmen.

* * *

The complete original article can be found here:

http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/exhibns/month/aug2009.html

the fencing activities have got me looking for more information and I found this wonderful bit:

I especially love the last line about a man who wears a sword without knowing how to use it is as ridiculous as a man who has books but can't read

Yes...an interesting day. Not the least of which was watching the two masters at work. The Conte di Loredan and Signor Verne. They are very closely matched, although the one is a good bit taller, with a bit more reach. When I fence with Signor Verne, I always feel as though I am thoroughly outclassed, but it is an honor and a pleasure to cross blades with someone so knowledgeable and such a gentleman.

...................

As we were passing so close, I insisted we stopped to pay our respects to the Prince and Princess of Amalfi.

It was late when we arrived, but they nevertheless treated us to their famous hospitality.

By Dawn we were once more on the ship and sailing through the straights of Messina.

I greatly look forwards to seeing you, and will endeavour to send news as I can along the journey.

Your loving Daughter

Elena

Melioria, May 1781

Dearest Father,

I received your request for my return early in the morning, which gave me plenty of time to pack and prepare for the journey.

I was lucky to be able to find the apprentice Fiorino, now grown much taller than when you last saw him. He and the other boys sailed for the mainland, but he returned alone. He seems very subdued and reluctant to tell me where they were trying to go, and what has happened to the other boys. I have, however, sent Zuanne to the mainland to see if he can pick up their trail. He will make his own way back to Venezia.

I am, however not travelling alone as I shall be bringing Fiorino back with me. Also a Sior Mercury Gandt will be accompanying us back to Venice. I think you will be interested in meeting this young man, as I believe he has hidden talents which may be of use to you.

Originally from England, he presents himself as a penniless man of fortune. He fancies himself a gambler but is eager to escape his creditors, as his talents do not seem to lie in games of Fortunes. My instincts tell me there is more to him than meets the eye, and I look forwards to your opinion.

We managed to leave on the evening tide and began our journey south.

(To be continued)

Loire - Atlantique, 14th of May 1770Dear diary,We finally arrived at the harbor of St. Nazaire. Here we are going to take a ship that will bring us to Flanders.It was a long journey, and it took us several days by carriage to travel over 350 kilometers from la Chasseresse to the harbor. We didn't only took most of our possessions with us, but Stormy also insisted to take along our cow. I tried to talk it out of her stubborn mind, but you know my Stormy. If she has decided something then no one in the whole world can prevent that anymore. So that damm cow came with us. She even gave her a name: "Courtsie". Can you imagine that? Anyway she is extremely fond of that animal. After reading a book about the habits of an old Egyptian queen, she began to think Courtsie's milk is special and now she wants to drink it every day. She even washes herself with it, because "it makes her skin soft and moisturized". Personally i think its because that cow once licked some whiskey from my still. I had the biggest trouble keeping that dammm cow out of my barn the next weeks...So our journey was a bit slowed down. Courtsie has inspected every flower bed and herb garden we found along the way. I will never forget the day that bloody farmer wanted to stick us all on his pitchfork, because Courtsie ate all his crops... My God, never knew a cow could run that fast !!!We saw some nice little houses along the way. I just could prevent Stormy from buying a little mansion in Chenonceaux... Promised her we would come back after we visited my family (she wont forget that, i am sure..., maybe we can take another road back?).We also visited a lotta taverns. After all one can not sleep outside can we? The white wine they make along the Loire river is remarkable. It always tastes like ... "more". And yes, as you could have guessed, I had the biggest trouble keeping our cow outside the tavern. She behaved only after i started treatening to sell her to the tavernkeeper so he could put her on the menu.I am looking forward to see my parents and family back. And of course i do hope we will be in time to see my dear friend Abb Abelard before he passes away. Stormy is afraid mom will bring up the subject of "children". Mom always believed a strong offspring is important. Its her religious nature i think, or maybe her motherly nature... Although that last one was sometimes rather harsh. If you are puzzled here, well just imagine that her rolling pin was her favorite "educational tool". No wonder we Panaceks have a hard skull.At St. Nazaire's harbor quarters we were send to a local tavern "The talking one legged Parrot" to meet someone that would take us to Flanders. In the smokey interior we were introduced to someone called "Capt'n Jax". After some bargaining and a few bottles of rum we agreed on the price. Stormy told me later on he reminded her of a pirate. Must have been his eyepad? With half of the French fleet sunk in the seven year war we can't afford to be picky. Tomorrow we will set sail to Antwerp. Flanders here we come !!! Meeeuuuhhhh!!! (Courtsie, stop that !!!)P.

Tourraine, 7th of May 1770.

Dear diary,

I received a letter from my cousin Jan in Flanders regarding some bad news. It seems Abb Abelard, my dear friend who once learned me to write and read, is dying. Of course he has already a respectable age, and lived a good life, but still... It nevertheless moved my heart. Father Abelard has the wish to see me before he goes to Heaven.

I owe him a lot. After all it was he who noticed so long ago that i, although being a streetkid, had some intellectual qualities. It was he who came to my mom and asked her if he could give me some education. Mom always yelled at us, "that we were doomed to become like that useless father of ours", but nevertheless at that very moment she was as proud as a (giant) peacock (and showed that immediatly by hitting me on the head and yelling that she agreed, but if i ever would get 'fancy manners' she would kick me some reason in my useless brains). The fact that she secretly blowed her nose in that gigantic apron of hers made me realize that she was emotionally moved.

Anyway, thanks to the Abb i learned to read and write and set my first steps on the long path of medicine. I told my beloved wife that we have no other alternative than packing and going on a long journey back to Flanders, to grant that last wish of my dear friend. Most of our belongings are already packed in my well known crates and we are ready to leave la Chasseresse.

Lets hope we will arrive in time (at this point i must admit that Stormy is a bit afraid to finally meet my parents).

P.

My face is not that of a beauty, on the contrary I myself have difficulty tolerating it, and personally think [...] that I have a highly impertinent appearance, which [...] would mostly seem to invite a box on the ears [...]. I detest flattery, but welcome praise where praise is due, and I like to please, although more by the qualities of my heart that by my appearance.

Hedvig Elisabeth Charlotta Dagbok I (Diary, vol. 1)

Hedwig Elisabeth Charlotte,one of the beauties of the gustavian court, kept a diary between 1775-1817,and is a good source for information about the swedish court during these years.I found and intersting article about it:

Between 1775 and 1817, Duchess Hedvig Elisabeth Charlotta (1759-1818) wrote a voluminous diary of more than 4600 printed pages. She had come to Sweden in 1774, a fifteen-year-old German princess, to marry King Gustaf IIIs brother, Karl; the following year she started keeping a diary. The marriage was unhappy. Duke Karl was renowned for his sexual escapades with ladies-in-waiting and actresses, activities which he suspended for only a brief period after his marriage. Hedvig Elisabeth Charlotta bore him two children, in 1797 and 1798 respectively, but neither survived. Her hopes of finally becoming a mother, and thereby having a meaningful existence, were thus crushed. In 1809, she became Queen of Sweden when her husband ascended the throne as Karl XIII.

Hedvig Elisabeth Charlottas diary is one of the most important historical documents relating to the Gustavian and post-Gustavian era. It was written in French, and drawn up as monthly letters summarising the most significant events at court during the preceding month. Having initially favoured descriptions of court parties and entertainments, which to a large extent consisted of theatre performances arranged by Gustaf III, as she grew older Hedvig Elisabeth Charlotta became increasingly interested in political issues.

In order to fill the lonely vacuum and to have an ongoing occupation, both worthy of me and at the same time agreeable, for my active mind, I decided to write down everything that occurred before my eyes. However, she writes in a preface, it would be far too dull to write only for herself: she needed someone to write to, someone to write for. The entries in the diary are addressed to a woman of her own age, her best friend since her arrival in Sweden: Sophie von Fersen, who became Sophie Piper upon her marriage in 1778. Like Hedvig Elisabeth Charlotta, Sophie Piper was trapped in a marriage of convenience. Sophie Piper is the diarys ideal reader, the one being spoken to: You desire of me, my dear friend, a meticulous account concerning everything that occurs here.

The diary also, however, addresses itself to posterity, and gradually assumes the character of court chronicle and political document.

Over the years, Hedvig Elisabeth Charlotta also wrote thousands of letters to Sophie Piper, alongside the diary affectionate, tyrannical, romantic letters, full of the Pre-Romantic nurturing of friendship. And it is quite obvious that friendship and dialogue with Sophie are the motive powers in her extensive writing project. These discourses keep her pen writing and her heart beating, even when the two friends are apart.

Time and again she returns, in reality and in her thoughts, to the bosquet dlicieux , the delightful bower in the park of Rosersberg Palace, where she and Sophie sat in affectionate conversation. She later sits there alone, reading and dreaming. And from here she writes to her friend, telling her how she longs for her, and reminding her of the everlasting friendship they have vowed one another. The bower becomes the symbol of the magic ring their friendship had drawn around the two women: a secluded place for whispered confidences, affectionate glances, and playful comments about the surrounding world.

A little verse written by Hedwig,about her friendship with Sophie Piper:

For corrupted hearts, friendship is not made. / O, divine friendship! Consummate bliss! / The only excitement of the soul in which exaggeration is allowed [...].

original text found at: http://nordicwomensliterature.net/article/what-occurred-my-eyes

Petit Trianon: French Garden Parterre SL (Bumblebee view)