Creating an economic component for your historical RP can be challenging.  Keeping that economy thriving can be down right daunting.  I've always believed that an economic facet can provide a richness to historical RP that is well worth the time, effort, and money invested but it certainly isn't an easy endeavor.

Inspired by Abbondio's blog post The Workings Of The Banco Rezzonico (In G&S Economy) , I'm creating this discussion so that we can share our ideas and experiences for the benefit of the historical community.

Some ideas for discussion include:

• Picking the right systems and tools to help manage your economy
• Strategies to help you get started
• Closed vs. open systems
• Encouraging healthy cash flow
• Usability: how easy & enjoyable is your economic component both for the average RPer and the management
• How important is historical accuracy

These are all open-ended questions with no right or wrong answer and I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts

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Picking systems & tools:

The QH Co-op has been using the Guardian de las Sombras (G&S) system for the past three years and I'm pretty much sold on the system.  It's always a relief when you've bought into something to see them expanding their products on a regular basis as G&S has been doing.

Originally rooted in Gorean fantasy it has expanded its scope so that it is quite suitable for historical RP be it Medieval, Renaissance, or the Age of Enlightenment and beyond.  G&S has a large community base  providing good support and the possibility of OOC trade.  This expanded trade network has really helped the QH Co-op's economy remain viable and I don't think we could have survived without it.

I would recommend that any historical RPGs that want to interact with others of their kind (the QH Co-op for example) use the free G&S HUD as their currency HUD.  Even if you don't intend to use any of the G&S activities in your RP, a standardized form of currency management for the historical community would really help to integrate our different groups.

Looking back at past posts, I found Mansur's Best Currency Hud?  query.  Sorry for the two year delay, Mansur, but you bring up an interesting point about functionality " it would be customizable at the admin level and give me a large amount to start with (so that I can give it to folks as needed for their roles)."

The G&S HUD is not customizable and you don't get a large amount to start with but I'm still recommending it because I know from experience that it's easy to use, reliable, and has a large client base.  Starting your economy from scratch is challenging when have very little cash to begin with BUT there are strategies that can be incorporated into your RP that will give you the pleasure of building your economy.  Where's the fun of everyone starting out with a zillion dollars and not having to work for it

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Minister of Finance: An Essential Role

It's my firm belief that managing a successful economy within a Historical RP requires a Minister of Finance.  Depending on the RP the title will vary: Minister of Finance, Estate Manager, Lord High Treasurer etc. but whatever the title the duties remain the same i.e. to keep the economy moving while balancing the budget.

In a perfect RP everyone would participate in the economy by buying, producing/serving, and selling.  It's been my experience (gained over the past 11 years of analysing numerous Historical RP groups) that there's usually a huge imbalance between supply and demand.  People really like to craft and sell.  No one likes to buy.  Crafters build up an inventory of goods until they reach a point where further production is pointless. People lose interest, the economy dies and everyone goes back to having monthly tea parties.

Ideally at the top of your social hierarchy you should have a king like Henry VIII who likes to dole out money (until he bankrupts the huge treasury left to him by his father and has to dissolve the monasteries in order to recover- but I digress).  Even if the person(s) at the top of the food-chain understand that spending is important using a system like G&S it means that they probably won't start out with vast funds (they'll have to fake their wealth) and fresh injections of capital will always be required.  Let the Minister of Finance help with that.

Moving down the class ladder, you're never going to be able to force people to spend what they see as their hard-earned coins. You may impose certain fees but make them too onerous and there will be a revolt … shudders at the thought of the sans-culottes marching on the palace.

You may be able to come up with various scenarios that make spending fun, more power to you if you can because it takes skill and effort.

In the meantime you should count on someone who's job is keeping the coins circulating.  This person must be supported by the RP group's management.  It's most likely going to take L$ in the beginning and the ultimate goal should be to have a system that is L$ cost neutral.  Think of this as just another real cost of RP.

A Minister of Finance is well worth the investment as it allows other players to go happily about their RP lives, never needing to worry about economic stability.  It's also an enjoyable role for the right person; I can testify to that myself!

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"In a perfect RP everyone would participate in the economy by buying, producing/serving, and selling.  It's been my experience (gained over the past 11 years of analysing numerous Historical RP groups) that there's usually a huge imbalance between supply and demand.  People really like to craft and sell.  No one likes to buy.  Crafters build up an inventory of goods until they reach a point where further production is pointless. People lose interest, the economy dies and everyone goes back to having monthly tea parties."

Hear, hear!

I agree wholeheartedly. But I would even take it a step further. In a roleplaying-environment, to make a economical structure work (be it just a bakery, a farm, or a full blown town with businesses) you need to have it enforced from the top. We all accept (or refuse) the rules of a RPG when we consider joining it. In my observation too the root of the problem is always in the end of the chain: consuming. So why not enforce one simple rule: You dress the part? You spend the part! You're a noble - a high ranking one even? - grand, but then it comes with obligations. You hire local people for jobs, you spend in shops, you pay taxes for the stuff people used to pay for - in the 17th and 18th century there were indeed wealth taxes: You paid for the coffee, chocolate and tea you used in your household, the amount of chimneys and windows your residence had, the number of staff and horses. It only works when the management of the RPG itself states clearly 'this is our vision, and so it will be done'.

Besides, entering a set-up system of roleplay-economy is always cheap in comparison to other stuff people spend their L$ on to get started. Without any problem they pay hundreds (thousands even) of L$ on gowns, wigs, accessories, but spending a small amount to get yourself immersed in the actual community and enrich your rp by that would be too much? Not to blow our own horn as bankers, but I think we got a very fair rate of exchange in this G&S-currency. Something we have always said from the moment we decided to set up the bank: We will always offer a better exchange than the standard, and by that surely a better one than the free market. I usually say: 10,000 lira/livres/piastra should enough to get started and explore. According to our bank's latest rates (which is about the easiest and quickest way to get hold of it) gaining this starting capital would require the simple investment of about 30L$... I wouldn't call that over the top...

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So why not enforce one simple rule: You dress the part? You spend the part!

It's been my observation that an economy usually isn't part of the initial RPG rules but is added on piece-meal at some point after a pattern of behaviour has already been established.  Perhaps this makes it less palatable to the members already involved because they actually didn't sign up for it.  I really don't know but find it interesting to speculate.

If this is true, then starting a fresh RPG with an economic plan in place from the beginning is the easiest way to go.  I must say that the banking services currently being offered are a huge bonus for those just starting out.  Not to discourage those looking at retrofitting an economy as I believe the challenges are well worth the cost.

I couldn't agree more that 30L$ is a very small price to pay to get your foot in the door.  The QH started out with an economic plan which included scratching in the dirt for the initial capital.  It was a lot of fun but it was also a lot of work.  If I had to do it again, I'd pay 30L$ in a heart beat for starting capital.

Honestly these are exciting times not only for those just launching a new RPG but also for those veterans with economic visions!

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Trade Makes Your RP Economy Sing!

According to Webster, trade is "the business of buying and selling or bartering commodities".   I have to keep reminding myself of this because I tend to relate RP trade to bartering when it can actually be much more sophisticated.  In fact, I believe that RP trade could be the glue that binds our Historical RP community together.

Trading within your own group will probably be a priority.  There's a reason why "buy local" is more than just a catchy slogan and you'll always be striving to keep your own economy stable but with the QH it just wasn't enough to keep our products circulating.

Trading with other Historical RP groups is my ultimate goal.  From a purely practical standpoint, the G&S system is so vast that any one group probably won't be able to do it all.  From a community standpoint I think it would be grand to shop at various Historical RP markets.  For one thing, it could be a lot less stressful than trying to learn & abide by all the different RP group rules.  I see the marketplace as a type of neutral zone where people can visit, meet, and mingle without having to remember the proper forms of address and behaviour.  I believe that this would be very appealing to many of us and it's one of the reasons that I make an effort with the QH Market hoping that if I build it they will come

Trading OOC will probably be a necessity for the foreseeable future.  The QH has had a presence at the G&S Co-op from the very beginning as it's currently the only way we can hope to move any quantity of our goods.   Honestly I'd rather be saving my L$ (which go towards stall rentals) and spending my RP coins in a historical setting.

Black Market the G&S game is also a form of trade that supplements the rest.  Not only is it a lot of fun to play but helps drive the economy as a whole by creating a lot of demand.

What think you?

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It's been ages since I last wrote something but had to take part in this conversation. As my RPG Sim project in OpenSim closed I moved back to first loving area in SL, Antiquity and we are doing major changes.

We used G&S system for a long time and tried to keep it alive in our RP but had the same issue as everyone else, too much production for not much demand. This is why Antiquity invested few years ago in having his own crafting system called [ACS] and was managed by Beatrix Muircastle who did an excellent job at hosting a market night every week and keeping the system alive for so long. The problem with [ACS] was the same as G&S... If you don't have to use it, why would you?

Tatiana said it, it's best to figure out the Economic system as you launch your RPG and even tough Antiquity is a long standing Sim, we keep the change to renew our RP system with a new HUD that manage your titles, provide class, levels, and a progression path and professions but mostly [ACS] have been rebuild from the ground so all is tied together. This means you have to wear the HUD to RP and the HUD require you to use [ACS] stuff in different ways so you have to consume product.

Picking the right systems and tools to help manage your economy : For me, to keep control over your economy you need to have control over the sources, the reason behind making our own HUD one of them. I used SpellFire that is like Unity before and loved it, but as it is possible for anyone to purchase COPY item so get unlimited food for a single L$ investment, this kind of ruined the project... Also we wanted to have a system that we own and was 100% free for our RPers and that was not available (or we didn't found it...). As we provide PAY system based on Level and Class, we provide Crafting System [ACS] and the HUD to tie it all together we expect to be able to keep a fair control over the economy and create a fair experience to everyone.

Strategies to help you get started : everything in the RP is purchasable only with HUD currency, pricing and products are created with scale, so lower level with less money can still get what they need to survive and as they progress they can get more and more, so it keep an incentive to play and progress. We reward people with Experience points for what they do and the "time" they spend in the RPG. If you can get everything from the start by using your L$... you loose the pride part of the game.

Closed vs. open systems : For us closed was mandatory as what we seek didn't existed the way we wanted it... This being said, a closed system could be spread in different sims it's just not gonna be available on MarketPlace, and will follow the same basic rules everywhere.

Encouraging healthy cash flow : We consider that giving experience point to progress when you either harvest, craft but also when you do social activities with other RPers encourage people to consume and so spend money. As mostly everything cost HUD money cash should flow around everyday.

Usability: [ACS] is really easy to use, it is based on rez and click for the crafting part, but to add realism to the RP, some crafting require you to be of a specific profession. Some craft require a minimal level, some recipe are availaible to everyone but other need to be purchased and learned. Once you understand how to use one part of it, you understand how to use it all as everything work the same. And... you won't be able to eat a full turkey with a single click... it will take time to eat it all

How important is historical accuracy : For me it's very important as long as it doesn't create an unpleasant limit. For exemple you won't see BigMac in [ACS] (At least you shouldn't...), but paysant can eat other stuff then bread and broth.. (just saying)

For me crafting system is nice, but there is to be a reason to use it and there should also be means to do without them, this is why we are setting up store with NPC to allow people to purchase stuff at higher price then what local producer could offer, people will also be able to have stall at their home to sell product even if they are away and we hope all this create an immersive and fun RP.

We are still in setting up but the core is already working and all is focus on keeping people active, consuming and acting their role, like mentionned before, if you are a high noble, you are expected to spend lot of money so we'll provide you with expense to fill your paycheck

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Welcome back, Louis!  It's wonderful to see you returning to SL.

I have to congratulate both you & Jacon on your enhanced [ACS] system.  Clearly you are putting a lot of thought & effort into it.  It always helps to build on previous experience and, if I understand correctly, you are automating incentives thus making the role of the person(s) I called "Minister of Finance" less of a burden.

I hope that even though we are using different underlying systems we can find some common ground to encourage trade.  Perhaps with the Bank involved as a middleman?  It's definitely something to think about.

Merci beaucoup!

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good afternoon Tatiana....:)

I am glad you told me about this tread.  I ran home from Rocca to tell Louis and he beat me to the punch with a post...lol  In all seriousness, I think there are many ways we can work together, through the bank or other trade agreements we might come up with.  Louis has done a very good job of breaking down our system and the rational behind it.  

I believe as always, its best to work together and am glad to see trade may be a way to get some lines of cooperation going.  Pirates Destiny, a pirate estate we do weekly battles with, also has their own home grown crafting system they have created.  Working with them, we were able to integrate their battle system into our Antiquity HUD so that we could have cross estate weapons.  Although the HUDs are different, and you need to use the home HUD where ever your at, the new weapons being developed work in both estates.

For trade, we settled on seven items, three from PD and four from Antiquity....to create some trade runs between the two estates. The seven items will be able to be used on both estates and systems, instead of trying to do all items.  Maybe we can find similar ways around the two system hurdle.

We look forward to working with the Hamlet and Don Abbundio where ever possible.  Anything that will help spur more rp and cooperation between the estates will have our total support.

Although we have some aspects up and running already, we hope to have the whole system buzzing soon.  We will follow up with more detail on the system as we bring it all online.

If you have any questions on the system, please feel free to reach out 

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I must admit that I am not a great fan of inworld economies - I come to SL to escape from things like worrying about what to do about supper! However, I do seem to be eating apples at a great rate as I go about my evening rounds which means the new HUD system is addressing consumption issues, and am enjoying encounters with community members while solving my hygiene and health issues at the Baths. 

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… waves hello to Jacon.  It's a pleasure to see you here!

It's worth repeating my congratulations to you and Louis for tackling a system of such scope.  Exciting times for certain!

I'm very interested in the cross-trade you developed with Pirates Destiny.  Would it be possible for you to also include items from the G&S system?  Perhaps a limited set?  Thanks to Abbondio's On Produce & Trade (from notes on a G&S Economy) we have a great list to work from.  If we could find something that you're not producing (or won't be for some time) we could focus in on that.

I'm also wondering if you have included any medicinal items (which are sorely lacking in G&S) at the moment?

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I can agree that we each have our own limits, Tiamat.  I have very found memories of playing TheSims2 but I just hated the hygiene requirements.  Who has a time for a bath when there are worlds to conquer!  In any case, I soon learned how to cheat my way out of that  

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It is with big interest we wish to establish trades with other Sims. To include G&S product is not very easy for the same reason we haven't choose G&S system to work with. There is no way we can enforce the use of their goods and this is not a free system. With Pirate Destiny they have their own system too so making a cross working solution when all is free is easy. What I see possible is to purchase product from QH G&S at our trading company then we convert that to our system. The hard part is to reverse that... we could sell you back what you sold us but to sell new G&S product it would mean we would need to harvest G&S product. Tough I leave that part to Jacon

For the medical question, yes we do have medical items (some working some in the work) also we will have in a futur addon sickness added to the HUD for now its more to repair injured people

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Both comments go right to my heart I'm a huge fan of The Sims Game too. Also had some of your work Tatiana :D

But as taking bath in the Sims was just long and boring, we add new ways to clean yourself in a more 18th fashion way, like perfume you use to "clean" yourself. chuckle... And will soon add soap and scented herbs to add to bath to clean quicker.

But Tiamat bring up the biggest part of it, all this is mean to make people more social, play together and encourage unplanned RP events.

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What I see possible is to purchase product from QH G&S at our trading company then we convert that to our system. The hard part is to reverse that.

I like the idea of a trading company!  An idea for selling things back; the new G&S wine & spirits actually give energy.  A healer could buy the liquor from us and repackage it into healing elixirs.  I'd buy some of those potions.  We'll have to keep thinking of other ways to circulate products.

Both comments go right to my heart I'm a huge fan of The Sims Game too. Also had some of your work Tatiana :D

Nothing could be better than another The Sims fan and I'm tickled to find out that you had some of my stuff.  It's a small world

The idea of using perfume is much more appealing to me than those Sim showers were.  As I say, I cheated so that I never had to use them.  Of course you make an excellent point that that this is all to encourage RP.

However, I do seem to be eating apples at a great rate

Inspired by Tiamat's comment, I've started a new discussion Historical RP: What's your daily diet?  Both because I've always been curious about the subject and because nourishment is such a big part of a RP.

ETA:  This comment also reminded me of February 15, 1533 – Anne Boleyn Has “A Furious Desire to Eat Apples” .     

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Finally had a moment to read the replies about the Antiquity system; I was already intrigued by it and hope to learn more about it. Perhaps it's time to call in on the long-standing invitations from Don Jacon and Lord Trevellion for a tour and a visit. Certainly the set-up and modification option for period items and necessities are interesting. I remain always willing to think along and search for options to achieve more communication and trade within the community. A general consensus is nice, but not always possible when different systems are used; however, cross-overs an parallel use should be possible. Especially when, as we have determined by now, the systems are easily accessible at low to no cost at all.

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*Waves* to Tatiana

This is odd...but....the reason i came to sl was frustration with thesims.  I used to love to play..download things to use....and it never failed i would down load object that would crash my scene or i would lose my work.  So thank you thesims...for bringing us all together...lol

As for the trading, maybe we can sit one day and look at what is being produced and see where we can find places to work with you.  I think we could export some perfume or other products that g&s does not produce.  Your trading company, can work with our trading company, RATS, the Royal Antiquity Trading and Shipping Co.  A very trustworthy shipping company.

As for the system, we have tried to gear it towards our needs.  We had a couple large g&s farms here, and it was good enough, but we just wanted a bit more control...and for it to be free to our residents to use.  Bea did a great job with the foundation of it and louis has done an amazing job expanding and updating the system. 

We wanted it to be fun....we wanted needs....but we also did not want people fainting everywhere from starvation.  We tried to create a way for all levels to live, from a forest scavenger to a prince in a palace.  We also wanted to allow people to produce things and brand them with their own labels. 

One feature, that i love, is also the social aspect of it.  doing things in groups gives you more experience points and thus helps you progress through the levels faster. Spending time together, either eating dinner or sitting in a tavern drinking home make vintages and gambling.

Abbundion, I should also mention, that we also have a working bank, that handles our payroll, and deposits.  I think our bank might be a good way to have some sort of currency exchange with your bank, for limited things might also help get some trade going.

Lastly, I will mention, that I did speak briefly with Tia about getting a list of some medicinal herbs or roots, things that could be used to create potions or medicines.  This will work with some ideas we have for later on in the development.

Ok, I think i have babbled enough.  If anyone has questions or would like to see any of the system we have up and running...just give a hollar, louis or i can show anyone around.

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omg...Abbundio...sorry..i spell like a 5th grader sometimes...not paying attention

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just shoot me

Abbondio

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… pats Jacon on the shoulder and hands him a glass of excellent Queen's Hamlet wine ...

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How cool is that (not the crashing but TS2 connection)!  Please tell us more over at The Sims: Were You a Player?

On another note: I love the idea of social time giving you more experience points.  Your whole strategy is very intriguing and I'll be taking up your offer to visit soon.  Thanks!

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Just to put the pigeon amongst the cats. My thinking is not many older residents (SL) will move to new Estates, as many have established environments in which to play. Discounting those who move due to closure or some form of disagreement. I have not even considered those who leave SL.  So that will mean trying to recruit newer residents to the RP Estates. Second Life in essence is not an easy game to learn for a complete newcomer to Virtual Worlds. Then add on top of the initial learning curve the complexity of Mesh bodies.

Now we have a Trading system to add to the learning curve, remember I am trying to see this as a someone new to SL. Many older residents have grown up with the development of Trading/Battle systems.

I am seeing one constant and frustrating problem, that is trying to bring new people and retain them. My frustration is often vented in various group conversations, as many who know me will verify. We have some excellent Trading Systems; I do believe the Antiquity one has tremendous potential. So how do bring new blood to our Historic Estates, retain them, get those who never read notecards to read them. I feel this is a direction that needs some investigation.

Now where is Tiamat`s apple tree, I need food.

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I've been in the Historic Estate game a long time (10+ years) and I can honestly say that I've never been happier with my SL experience than I am now.  Knock on wood!  Respecting that each individual has their own measure of satisfaction here are some of my hard-earned insights.

I feel zero pressure to attract "new blood" or retain "old blood" for that matter and this lack of pressure is probably what makes me the happiest.

I do my best to offer stability, sanity, and fun.  I have zero tolerance for melodrama. I am willing to provide some of the infrastructure & resources necessary to facilitate roleplay as well as a certain amount of entertainment BUT I am not running a summer camp where I must cater to the whims of the world.  This may sound a tad harsh on first reading but over and over again I have seen estate managers burn out in a futile attempt to please.

The people in QH Co-op RPG are just wonderful and I'm very fortunate to be able to share some of my SL with them.  I'm not actively looking to increase the group size.  I will thoroughly enjoy my time with the current members, welcome the occasional new member, and when the time comes for someone to leave I will wish them all the best.

All this to say that I believe controlling the size of RPGs is important and estate managers have to decide just how much they can realistically offer and then sustain over the long haul.  If people are attracted to the environment on offer, that's great.  If they're not, that's great too.

Enhancing our connections between different RPGs with ideas like RP economies & trade is just the icing on the cake

ETA: This really is a topic that deserves a discussion all of its own.  If someone would like to start a new thread please do!

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This issue has me torn.  I do see the need to try and bring in new blood so to speak, but I am also at peace just knowing i am surrounded by amazing family and friends, a playground to run around and have fun in.

I have spent my entire time in SL and antiquity, trying to improve and make it better.  I don't really count success by heads anymore but by how things have changed and gotten better for the estate and its residents.

That said, I do believe the social aspect is lacking in some sorts.  The idea is to utilize the extra XP points when things are done in a group.  Eating in the tavern, having a drink, gambling, all add XP when done in groups of 3 or more.

Also, it is my hope that using the trade as and incentive, and possible rp involved in that, we can get more people growing and producing to maintain the needed export levels. Also the chance to inter act with other estates allows to expand our circle of friends and family, and that is always a good thing.

If now, we can only get Linden Lab to fix the lag, I can die a happy prince.

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Fortunately my consumption of apples has more to do with the trees Lord Rochefort has placed on my property than with any possibility of being with child. I await progress on the matter of sheep and mutton.

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Many thanks to Louis for starting a new discussion: Historical RP/Sim : How to get new people and retain existing 

Let's hope we can solve the problems of the world over there

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